UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN SOUTHERN DIVISION BARBARA GRUTTER, for herself and all others similarly situated, Case Number: Plaintiff, No. 97-CV-75928 -vs- LEE BOLLINGER, JEFFREY LEHMAN, DENNIS SHIELDS, and REGENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, Defendants, and KIMBERLY JAMES, ET al., Intervening Defendants. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _/ VOLUME 6 BENCH TRIAL BEFORE THE HONORABLE BERNARD A. FRIEDMAN United States District Judge 238 U.S. Courthouse & Federal Building 231 Lafayette Boulevard West Detroit, Michigan TUESDAY, JANUARY 23, 2001 APPEARANCES: FOR PLAINTIFF: Kirk O. Kolbo, Esq. R. Lawrence Purdy, Esq. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 2 1 2 APPEARANCES: (CONTINUING) 3 4 FOR DEFENDANTS: John Payton, Esq. Craig Goldblatt, Esq. 5 On behalf of Defendants Bollinger, et al. 6 7 George B. Washington, Esq. Miranda K. S. Massie, Esq. 8 On behalf of Intervening Defendants. 9 10 COURT REPORTER: Joan L. Morgan, CSR Official Court Reporter 11 12 13 14 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography. Transcript produced by computer-assisted 15 transcription. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 3 1 I N D E X 2 3 WITNESSES: PAGE: 4 5 WITNESSES PRESENTED ON BEHALF OF INTERVENOR 6 7 ERICA DOWDELL 8 Direct Examination by Ms. Masley 7 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Payton 76 10 11 GARY ORFIELD 12 Direct Examination by Ms. Massie 81 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Payton 180 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Purdy 184 15 16 17 E_X_H_I_B_I_T_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 18 19 MARKED RECEIVED 20 21 Exhibit Number 195-200 170 22 Exhibit Number 118 173 23 Exhibit Number 167 173 24 Exhibit Number 131-133 173 25 Exhibit Number 18 212 GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 4 1 Detroit, Michigan 2 Tuesday, January 23, 2001 3 9:00 a.m. 4 _ _ _ 5 (Court in session.) 6 THE COURT: I have one other just 7 quick preliminary matter. I got a letter yesterday 8 from a, I think it must be a Professor William 9 Kidder. He said at one time he was going to be part 10 of the Intervenor's case. 11 I have not read it, he has sent me 12 all of literature, I'm going to share it with 13 everybody on both sides. You can pass it around and 14 do whatever you want. 15 He's got a couple of Law Review 16 articles in here. And I don't know why he sent this 17 to me, but whatever it is Steven, maybe you can give 18 it to whoever wants it. I have no desire to do 19 anymore reading than I absolutely have to. 20 He's got the gallant proof of his 21 latest edition of some article that he's writing. 22 MS. MASSIE: Judge, you and Steven 23 also have copies of proposed exhibits, they will go 24 with Professor Orfield's testimony. 25 THE COURT: Are they in the book? GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 5 1 MS. MASSIE: No, they're all based on 2 stuff that is already in the book. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Any other 4 preliminary matters before we start? 5 MR. PURDY: Judge, may it please the 6 court, just so that we don't have to interrupt the 7 proceeding this morning, let me simply renew our 8 motion earlier concerning the relevance of Professor 9 Orfield's proposed testimony. 10 I believe it's clear that he 11 professes no knowledge of the University of 12 Michigan's admission policy, he won't be testifying 13 about that as I understand it. 14 And I believe that his report dealt 15 mainly with the educational benefits of diversity 16 and exclusively with that. 17 He doesn't things to say about--in 18 fact, I can see the new exhibits that they have 19 proposed, deal with desegregation in major American 20 cities, things of this nature. 21 While we certainly agree that 22 Professor Orfield is an expert in those areas, we 23 believe there is no relevance to any of the issues 24 before this court. 25 And I just simply want to renew that GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 6 1 so the court understands our position, and I don't 2 want to be interrupting to the extent the Court 3 wants to hear some of his testimony. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Let the record 5 reflect that you will have a continuing objection. 6 And as I indicated before and we will again 7 indicate, I have a lot of questions in my own mind 8 whether or not any of this testimony is relevant. 9 But I have indicated to the 10 Intervenors that I would give them some latitude, 11 and I mean some. And it will be as liberal as I can 12 in relations to latitude. 13 But should it get too far away from 14 the issues that concern this particular trial, I 15 would certainly urge both the Plaintiff as well as 16 the Defendants to place your objection on the 17 record. 18 I will probably be in a position that 19 I have to do it, or may have to do it also. But if 20 you feel that it's too far off, by all means both 21 sides feel free to object. Okay, your first 22 witness. 23 MS. MASSIE: I think you'll find that 24 it's not far off at all. 25 THE COURT: I have no idea, all I GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 7 1 have is what you have submitted. 2 MS. MASSIE: Okay. Our first witness 3 is going to be Erika Dowdell and she will be 4 examined by Jodie Masley, who is also herself an 5 Intervenor. 6 THE COURT: Okay. I was anticipating 7 Professor Orfield, that's okay. You may step 8 forward. 9 ERIKA DOWDELL, 10 was thereupon called as a witness herein and, after 11 having been first duly sworn to tell the truth, the 12 whole truth and nothing but the truth, was examined 13 and testified as follows: 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MS. MASLEY: 16 Q. Ms. Dowdell, could you state your name and address 17 for the record, please? 18 A. Erika Dowdell, I live at 12814 Foley. 19 Q. Do you and I know each other? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How did we come to meet? 22 A. You were also an Intervenor in a case and that's how 23 I originally met you. And we are friends. 24 Q. May I have your permission to call you Erika? 25 A. Yes. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 8 1 Q. Have you lived your whole life in Detroit? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Can you describe for us your house? 4 A. I live on the west side of Detroit, my house is pink 5 and it is very distinguishable. I live on a block 6 where there are only two houses standing, because 7 the rest of the houses were abandoned and later on 8 torn down. 9 So, I live next to a very big large 10 field, it looks like a farm area if you weren't 11 familiar with the neighborhood. 12 Q. Is it, in fact, a farm area? 13 A. No, it's not. 14 Q. Can you describe the paint on the house apart from 15 it being pink? 16 A. Yes, the paint is peeling off, it's very old. It's 17 been a very long time since the house has been 18 painted. 19 Q. How large is the house? 20 A. Three bedroom house, one bath. 21 Q. How many siblings do you have, Erika? 22 A. I have four siblings, I'm the youngest of the four. 23 I have two older brothers and one older sister. 24 Q. What does your mother do? 25 A. My mother is a registered nurse at St. Jude GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 9 1 Convalescence Center. She looks after the elderly 2 there. 3 Q. How many years has she been doing that? 4 A. She's been a nurse assistant for almost fourteen 5 years. She started working when I was six years 6 old, I was in first grade. 7 Q. What does your father do? 8 A. I have no knowledge of that. 9 Q. Has your mother basically supported the four kids 10 alone? 11 A. Yes. My parents were separated as long as I could 12 remember, probably before I was actually born. And 13 I have always only lived in the house with my mother 14 and siblings. 15 Q. Did either of your parents, to your knowledge, go to 16 U of M or its law school? 17 A. Not U of M Ann Arbor, my father did go U of M 18 Dearborn. 19 Q. Has anyone in your neighborhood gone to the U of M 20 Law School? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So you would be pretty remote from a legacy point 23 then? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You have heard testimony sitting in the courtroom GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 10 1 about odds ratios for people being accepted into the 2 Michigan University Law School? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What do you think the odds ratio, the numbers look 5 like for the chances of the vast majority of people 6 in your neighborhood getting into the University of 7 Michigan Law School? 8 A. Zero. 9 Q. Is it your current intention to go to law school? 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. There has been a question raised in this courtroom 12 about whether or not if affirmative action were 13 eliminated, applications of Black students would 14 drop off, have you heard that testimony? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Would you make application to a resegregated law 17 school? 18 A. No, I would not. 19 Q. Why not? 20 A. Segregation, the history of segregation in our 21 country is real and it's true. And I cannot ever 22 see myself going to any institution that doesn't 23 take that into account and acknowledge that you have 24 to take race into account in order to integrate 25 these schools. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 11 1 And I will not go to a segregated 2 school because I understand the struggle, and I did 3 identify with the struggles to desegregate the 4 institutions in American society. And I won't 5 participate in the resegregation. 6 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about your life 7 and the experiences that have impacted your grade 8 point average up to this point. I'm going to start 9 with your education prior to high school? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Where did you go to elementary school? 12 A. I went to two different elementary schools. The 13 first one was Oakman Elementary School, I went there 14 until--I finished first grade there. 15 I went from second grade to fifth 16 grade at Parker Elementary School. Both of those 17 are right in my neighborhood. 18 Q. Were there white students at your elementary school? 19 A. There were a couple at Oakman, that school was mixed 20 with--it was the neighborhood school, but it was 21 mostly for students who were physically handicapped. 22 But there were no white students at Parker 23 Elementary School. 24 Q. And the white students at Oakman, what did you 25 notice about them? GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 12 1 A. The white students were physically handicapped in 2 wheelchairs and disabled. 3 Q. Where did you go to middle school? 4 A. I went to middle school at Drew. Drew Middle 5 School. 6 Q. Is that a neighborhood school? 7 A. That was my neighborhood middle school. 8 Q. Take us to Drew Middle School for a moment? 9 A. Drew Middle School was built shortly after the 10 Detroit riot, so it was built with very, very view 11 windows. And the classrooms that do have windows 12 are labs or science rooms. 13 And the windows are not built for the 14 sun to come into the building, the windows are on 15 the side. Where the sun would be shining this way 16 and the windows were here on the side. 17 So it was a place where you really 18 didn't see the light of day on a daily basis. Most 19 of the day you were inside of the classrooms and you 20 were not allowed to see what the outside world was 21 doing, it was almost as if you were in a little mini 22 prison there. 23 Q. How did it make you feel to be in a school like 24 that? 25 A. It made me feel constrained, as if when I walked GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 13 1 into that school I was no longer a part of the rest 2 of society. You felt like you were locked in and 3 locked down, and you didn't have freedom pretty 4 much. 5 Q. If a light was turned off in a room, what did it 6 look like? 7 A. It was almost pitch black except for the tiny little 8 window that was on the door, and you could see a 9 little bit of light in the hallway. It would be 10 virtually pitch black, it was kind of hard to see. 11 Q. And from your testimony, most of the classrooms had 12 no windows all the way around, is that correct? 13 A. That is correct. There may be ten classes with 14 windows, and that may be a stretch. 15 Q. Has part of that building been transformed now? 16 A. Yes. Part of it was made into--when they were still 17 doing areas for the district of Detroit, part of the 18 school was sectioned off and made to the Area A 19 office with Detroit Public Schools. 20 And the most recent part that has 21 been sectioned off, has been made into a Department 22 of Public Safety. So now there's a whole Department 23 of Public Safety inside of that middle school where 24 classes used to be. 25 Q. So police are there? GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 14 1 A. So now there are police there. 2 Q. And how old are the students of the school? 3 A. From ten to 13 or 14. 4 Q. Why do you think there are police in that school? 5 A. I think there are assumptions about how the students 6 will behave. I think that people assume that there 7 will be violence, that's why the school was built 8 with no windows in the first place. 9 From there ever being more students 10 that enter that school building for them to say, you 11 know, we assume that you won't be able to handle 12 having a window, so we'll build an entire school 13 without any windows says something about it. 14 And I think there's a lot of 15 assumptions about how students will behave and, you 16 know, whether or not they'll bring weapons into the 17 school at the age of ten. 18 Q. What did that communicate to you about how you were 19 being seen by society? 20 A. Well, you definitely weren't seen as someone who is 21 expected to succeed in that environment. It was 22 almost as if people assumed that you would fail from 23 the very start, and you weren't given the 24 opportunity to overcome that at that stage. 25 Q. You spoke of the school feeling like a prison, did GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 15 1 you think to yourself at that time that you were 2 being treated like a prisoner? 3 A. Yes, I did. And I felt especially for the black 4 male students there, that it was training for those 5 black men to be inside of a prison. 6 The security guards there very rarely 7 bothered the women students. But it would be a 8 struggle and a tussle when they would put their 9 hands on the black men students there. 10 And it was almost as if they were 11 saying, you have to get used to this because this is 12 what your life will be like, you know, for the rest 13 of your life. You might as well be getting ready to 14 know how to act in prison and know how to demean 15 yourself in front of me. 16 Q. How old are these students again? 17 A. When I went there I was ten, and I left there when I 18 was 13. 19 Q. Did Drew have a field? 20 A. Yes, it had like a field, I assume it was supposed 21 to be for baseball or football. 22 Q. Did you ever in your entire time at Drew get to use 23 it? 24 A. No. 25 Q. How did you feel about the education you received? GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 16 1 A. I knew that the education at Drew was not up to par. 2 I knew that there were magnet middle schools that 3 people went to that were much better than Drew 4 Middle School. 5 I know that we didn't have proper 6 supplies there, we didn't have enough books to go 7 around for the students. And I knew that it was 8 somewhat strange that we always had to stay inside. 9 At that age it's just kind of strange 10 for you to have a football field or a baseball field 11 and it was not never ever utilized. And I knew 12 there was something wrong with that education at 13 that school. 14 Q. How did you feel about the academics, what did you 15 study? 16 A. The academic there were not strong either. I don't 17 only remember having the actual supplies for a math 18 class. And I remember being in the music class 19 there, which is the two classes that students were 20 able to actually participate in and learn something 21 from. 22 Q. How many students were in the classes? 23 A. There were about 30 kids in my class. 24 Q. So you liked the music class? 25 A. I did like music class, I started playing clarinet GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 17 1 when I was in third grade in my elementary school. 2 And I was kind of tracked into the music class, the 3 sixth grade music class when I went to Drew Middle 4 School. 5 I never signed a paper or anything 6 like that. They just kind of put you in if you were 7 in music in elementary school. 8 Q. Were there other classes that you liked? 9 A. The only other was math. 10 Q. Why did you like math? 11 A. Because the teacher was--she knew how to respect the 12 students and therefore she was respected back. And 13 she knew how to work with kids, she had a passion 14 for teaching. She knew what our needs were. 15 Even not having enough supplies, she 16 would go out of her way and often times she got in 17 trouble by the principal for asking questions why 18 there were not enough books for the students to go 19 around. And we absolutely adored her. And 20 therefore we were able to focus in that class. 21 Q. Were you not able to focus in other classes? 22 A. I was not able to focus in the homeroom class, which 23 is the class I spent about three to four hours a day 24 in everyday, because there weren't enough books. 25 And it was just really difficult to teach like that. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 18 1 Q. What would happen in that class? 2 A. Basically students--we just kind of laid back and 3 did what we wanted to do. There was really nothing 4 to do. We come to class and there was never ever an 5 assignment hardly. Like hardly ever unless 6 someone's mother came to see what was going on 7 inside of the school. 8 And then the teacher would try to get 9 a book and turn to this page or whatever. But most 10 of the time we just kind of sat around, talked, you 11 know, made up little things to do and entertained 12 ourselves when we were there. 13 Q. Were there other ways that the students entertained 14 themselves in the absence of their learning? 15 A. There were times where someone would turn out the 16 light and we would entertain ourselves by throwing 17 books at the teacher, she couldn't see. So no one 18 ever really got in trouble for it. 19 And it shows how dark it was in 20 there. And just things like that went on on a daily 21 basis in that class. 22 Q. Would anyone have thrown books at the math teacher? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Were there any white students in your school? 25 A. No. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 19 1 Q. Were there any Asian Americans in Drew Middle 2 School? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Were there any Latino students? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Were there any Native Americans students? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Was it then one hundred percent black? 9 A. As far as I can remember, I don't remember seeing 10 any other type of face there. It was like all 11 black. 12 Q. Is there anything that happened at Drew that made 13 you start to think very hard about what your future 14 was going to be? 15 A. I remember writing a paper thinking about what my 16 goals were for the future. And it really made me 17 think about what type of high school I wanted to go 18 to. And I knew that if I wanted to get a better 19 education, if I was going to have more 20 opportunities, that I absolutely could not go to my 21 neighborhood high school. And that made me set 22 Cass Tech as my goal for high school. 23 Q. What is Cass Tech? 24 A. It's a magnet school in Detroit, it's one of three 25 or four magnet schools. And Cass Tech is known to GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 20 1 be the best, one of the best. 2 Q. How did you hear about Cass? 3 A. I was in the marching band in middle school and we 4 would always participate in the broadway parade, and 5 I would see the Cass Tech marching band and they 6 beat me, they were the best. And that made me want 7 to be part of that. 8 Also it was known, it was common 9 around to everybody that Cass was one of the best 10 schools to go to. That's how I heard about it 11 basically. 12 Q. Were there ever fights between students at Drew 13 Middle School? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Can you tell us about that? 16 A. There were often fights there among students. One 17 fight in particular that really made me decide that 18 I could not go to my neighborhood high school, was 19 one of my really good friends got into a fight with 20 some people and got her head busted open. 21 It was really common for people to 22 just carry a number of locks, combination locks on 23 shoe strings. Put a lock on your shoe string and 24 tie it up and you just kind of carried it. 25 And I carried it for--I carry locks GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 21 1 for protection while walking to and from school and 2 catching the bus. And it was very common, everybody 3 had locks it was no big thing. Everybody knew 4 everybody had locks on shoe strings. 5 And my friend got her head cracked 6 open with like, I don't know how many locks, it had 7 to be over seven. And she had to get her head 8 stapled. And because of that she ended up leaving 9 the middle school. 10 And I knew that if I wanted to just 11 like get away from that environment and stop 12 fighting myself, that I had to not go to my 13 neighborhood high school. 14 Q. Was there anything else that happened that made you 15 determined to try to go to a magnet school? 16 A. Well, I had auditioned for Cass. I had gotten into 17 Cass--let me try to explain this better. There was 18 a test that you had to take to get into Cass, King 19 or Renaissance. It was called the Cass, King or 20 Renaissance test. 21 I took that test, I did not pass that 22 test. And I was able to find another way to get 23 into Cass. And what I did was, there was such a 24 thing as special auditions at Cass. 25 And if you had a special musical GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 22 1 talent or an artistic talent, or you were some type 2 of actress or actor, you could get in. 3 And I found out that my best friend 4 was going, she had scheduled an audition to go there 5 and I wasn't really able to get the information that 6 I needed to schedule the audition. 7 It was kind of like I was doing 8 everything on my own trying to find out what 9 information was available for me. 10 And so I just got my instrument, I 11 grabbed some music and I was like, can I go with you 12 on the day that she had her audition. And she said 13 it was all right. 14 And I went with her down there and I 15 just kind of like begged and pleaded to the music 16 teacher to just hear me play. They really didn't 17 have a space for me, I didn't have a time slot, I 18 had nothing. And I was like, can I just play. 19 And they met me play, and I gave 20 them, I think, a copy of my report card or something 21 like that. And maybe another piece of paperwork and 22 I got in. 23 So, I was already inside of Cass by 24 the summer, but what really put the icing on the 25 case more than just getting into Cass, what really GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 23 1 made me think that I had to delve into my work 2 without any type of lacking, was when I saw my 3 father for the first time in about three years. 4 I always saw him very sporadically 5 over a number of years, and at that time I was 13 6 years old. And he came to the house for one day, he 7 lives in Birmingham, Alabama. 8 So, he came to Detroit for one day 9 and I remember thinking when I was little about all 10 of the perceptions of what your parents look like, 11 and I was kind of excited but not very excited that 12 he was coming, it was kind of a mix of emotions. 13 And when he got there, he looked like 14 the regular neighborhood crack head. And I think 15 that really had a very deep impression on me. And I 16 wasn't really taken a back by being like, this is my 17 father, I can't believe my father is like a drug 18 addict. 19 What I was really thinking, it was 20 almost a very impersonal situation. I was looking 21 at him as almost a stranger, and I was just like, 22 well, whatever his problem is, I don't want to be 23 like that. And made me decided to be as studious as 24 I possibly could when I got to Cass. 25 Q. What kind of student did you become when you got to GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 24 1 Cass? 2 A. Well, most of the time I describe myself, I just 3 turned into a complete dork, that's what I call it. 4 I didn't do anything. I felt like I had to 5 completely remove myself from all of my friends in 6 the neighborhood. 7 None of those kids went to Cass who 8 were my friends before, and only one person in my 9 homeroom class from Drew ended up going to Cass. 10 So, I felt like I had to remove 11 myself from everybody and anything that could 12 possibly get in my way, because I was like, I am 13 going to make it through this school. And all I 14 ever did was like my work, that's all I ever did. 15 Q. To go back to your audition, were you confident that 16 if they could hear you play they would let you in? 17 A. Absolutely. I can't explain the drive. I did sit 18 first chair in the clarinet section at Drew Middle 19 School, but that was almost not the reason that was 20 giving me confidence, not that I was like this 21 absolutely wonderful player. 22 But I felt like if I just had the 23 opportunity to play, that I could like get in there. 24 It wasn't even based, I don't know if it was based 25 on my talent or not. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 25 1 People who were doing other things, 2 like my best friend was like well, you know, I can't 3 play that well so I start crying if I mess up, and 4 they going to let me in then. 5 And I was just like I'm just going to 6 go and I was just completely confident that I would 7 get in. And I absolutely did. I did great on my 8 audition and I got in. 9 Q. You played your heart out? 10 A. I played my heart out. And I think that's what it 11 was, I was just like I have to get in there. 12 Q. Had anyone in your family gone to Cass? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did anyone in your homeroom pass the test? 15 A. One person. 16 Q. And she's the person that you were referring to? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did anyone push you in the direction of going to 19 Cass? 20 A. No, it was just something that I decided to do by 21 myself. None of my siblings even had taken the test 22 to get into Cass, and I just decided that I had to 23 go there. 24 Q. Did anyone assist you in anyway? 25 A. No, I went to the audition just by getting that ride GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 26 1 from my best friend. And going up to the music 2 teacher and kind of pleading to be heard that day. 3 Q. How old were you when you made that decision in your 4 life? 5 A. I was 13. 6 Q. So you got in? 7 A. I did get in. 8 Q. Despite having gotten in, were there things that 9 might have come between you and a Cass education? 10 A. Yes. First thing was that my mother is originally 11 from Birmingham, Alabama and so is my father. And 12 she was thinking of moving back to Birmingham that 13 year, because she wanted to live closer to my 14 grandparents so that she could have more help 15 raising my siblings and I. 16 And she was planning on moving back 17 to Birmingham when I got into Cass, I was like, 18 well, we can't go, we have to stay because I'm going 19 to Cass. 20 And she was kind of like hesitated 21 about it, and she was just like, well, you can go to 22 a school down there. And I was like, that's not 23 good enough because I want to go to Cass. I did all 24 of this stuff to get into Cass, I have to go there. 25 And so I even went to the point of GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 27 1 being like, if you ever move back to Birmingham I 2 have to find somebody to live with, because I'm 3 going to Cass. And so she ended up staying based on 4 that. 5 And if you ask her today why she 6 didn't move back to Birmingham, she will say because 7 my youngest daughter wanted to go to Cass. 8 And then there was the other issue, 9 because I had gotten in on special admission I had 10 to go to summer school. And I had to take two 11 classes, each class cost $65. And that was a big 12 economic sacrifice for my family. 13 And my mother didn't think she could 14 pay it at first, and I was like you have to come up 15 with the money. And I almost felt like I was asking 16 to much, I was asking more than my fair share as one 17 of the four children, and asking my mother to 18 stretch it a little bit too much. 19 But she managed to come up with the 20 money. She was worried about both the money for the 21 class and also bus fare that I had to pay. 22 Q. Can you describe how it is that you had to pay bus 23 fare over the four years that you went to Cass? 24 A. Yes. Originally if you were on reduced lunch you 25 could get a free bus pass. By the tenth grade year GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 28 1 they had changed that, and if you got reduced lunch 2 you had to pay for your bus fare. 3 And it was the regular student fare. 4 So there was no type of reduction in that amount of 5 money at all. 6 Q. And you had to take the city bus? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Was there any guarantee that there would be a seat 9 available on the city bus? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So you did end up going to Cass? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How was Cass different from Drew? 14 A. Cass had way more educational opportunities than 15 Drew did. Also Drew was a very, very working class 16 school, most of the students were poor or working 17 class. Cass had more middle class students that 18 went there. So it was kind of a different 19 environment all around. 20 Q. Was it an improvement? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. How would you describe Cass High School's racial 23 composition? 24 A. It's over 95 percent black. There may have been, 25 may have been seven whites, I'm stretching it. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 29 1 Maybe like five to seven white students who 2 graduated in my class out of a class of 522 3 students. And there were a couple of Latino 4 students and a couple of Asian students. 5 Q. So it was still quite segregated? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Is Cass High School located right near this 8 building? 9 A. Yes, it's like five blocks down the street. 10 Q. What is the neighborhood like that it's located at? 11 A. Cass is located in the Cass Corridor, that has kind 12 of a meaning in and of itself, Cass corridor. It's 13 an area that's very run down, lots of abandoned 14 buildings. 15 And I almost can't remember a day 16 where I couldn't see people who were homeless around 17 in the area, people who were prostituting in the 18 area. 19 Q. How early did you have to leave your house to make 20 sure that you got to school on time? 21 A. I left on a regular morning between 6:50 and 7:05 in 22 order to make it to school on time, school started 23 around about 8:00. 24 And on Wednesdays when I had 25 sectionals, that is practice for my music class, I GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 30 1 had to leave around 6:30 in the morning because 2 practice started at 7:15 a.m. 3 Q. You had to walk from your house to the bus stop, is 4 that right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Can you describe the route you had to take to the 7 bus stop? 8 A. The bus stop is two blocks away from my house. And 9 there are no houses by my house, so if I wanted to 10 be safe and take the safe route meaning there is 11 like lights, I would go the long way and go like the 12 complete two blocks taking the lighted streets to 13 the bus stop. 14 If I was in a rush, which was often 15 the case, I would go down the street, there was a 16 dead end across the railroad tracks and cross one of 17 the fields to get to the bus stop. Which is the 18 quickest way to go, but there was hardly any lights 19 over there. 20 Q. And did you often walk and stand by yourself in the 21 dark? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Were you ever concerned for your safety? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were there particular moments when you were GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 31 1 concerned? 2 A. The main period of time that I got really concerned 3 about my safety is when there was a couple of rapes 4 of girls going to school by themselves in the 5 morning. 6 And during that period I got kind of 7 worried and was trying to be extra careful, but I 8 couldn't be anymore careful than I was already 9 being. 10 Q. Did you ever encounter anyone on your trip to the 11 bus stop? 12 A. No. I mean there would be people who would be not 13 in their right mind, strung out on drugs who just 14 happened to be out. But nobody really bothered me. 15 Q. But apart from in your daily landscape, people 16 strung out on drugs walking, there wouldn't be any 17 other people that you would have been worried about? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Can you describe what Cass the school itself is 20 like? 21 A. Cass is very big, it has I think eight floors. The 22 school is kind of run down to be one of the best 23 schools in Detroit. It is run down, to be one of the 24 best schools in Detroit. 25 They have the very original elevators GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 32 1 that were placed into that school, I don't know that 2 that school was built way before 1950. And they 3 have the original elevator to operate, but it's not 4 accessible to students who are not physically 5 disadvantaged. Kind of run down, falling apart. 6 That's a basic description of it. 7 Q. What would you say about the resources? 8 A. Very scarce. I mean there weren't enough books to 9 go around, I can just give you an example. I took 10 French I my first year at Cass, and we had some 11 books but not enough. We often had to share or 12 leave the books in the classroom. 13 And then when I took French II, the 14 school ordered a new series of books, right? So, 15 the people who were taking French I had brand new 16 French books. But the people who were taking French 17 II had no books. 18 And we kept asking the teacher why we 19 don't have any books, it's really hard studying a 20 language when you can't see, like you can't see the 21 structure of the sentences, you can't put the words 22 together and the teacher is constantly trying to 23 write everything on the chalk board and you had 24 nothing to take home to study afterwards. It was 25 really, it was impossible. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 33 1 And so we asked them why we didn't 2 have any, you know, a French II book and he was 3 like, well, because they're waiting to order the 4 French II books for next year. So that the people 5 who are taking French I now then they will have 6 their new textbooks for French II. 7 And I was like, well, what are we 8 supposed to do? And he was like, you know, I am 9 just really sorry, you can just take notes off the 10 chalk board and do what you possibly can. But that 11 wasn't sufficient, and he knew that and we knew 12 that. 13 And so basically I wasted a year for 14 nothing. I didn't learn any French that year, I 15 didn't even like French. And so when I got to 16 college I took Spanish instead. 17 Q. Where did you take drivers education? 18 A. At McKenzie High School. 19 Q. Can you describe where at McKenzie High School? 20 A. They have a drivers ed range, kind of like in the 21 back of the school by a parking lot. They have like 22 a whole little range that you can drive around and 23 stuff. 24 But the building in which you met was 25 like this little shack. And you met in there and GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 34 1 was supposed to learn and then go outside and drive 2 on the range. The building was very small and 3 crumbling. 4 I mean it almost looked like an old, 5 very old storage house that nobody uses anymore. 6 And it was often very cold in there. 7 Q. Did it have any insulation? 8 A. Not that I know of. All I know it was really cold 9 in there. 10 Q. In terms of your other experiences at Cass, what did 11 you come to concentrate on while you were there? 12 A. I concentrated on music. My curriculum was 13 avocation music. 14 Q. And what does that entail? 15 A. It's a music program for people who really like 16 music, but don't want to become a musician. 17 Q. So, over the four years, what did you do in that 18 program? 19 A. Well, you were only required to be in one ensemble 20 your first year, and then two ensembles in your 21 junior and senior year. 22 And you had to take like other 23 classes like English and stuff, but you had to take 24 like physics, because physics has some music 25 elements to it. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 35 1 So, I took advantage of the music 2 program and I just kind of made music my life there. 3 The first year there I went there playing clarinet. 4 And I played clarinet my first year, my second year 5 I picked up piano. My third year I continued to 6 play clarinet and piano and I picked up flute. And 7 then my fourth year I picked up the saxophone. 8 Q. Did you own your own instrument? 9 A. I owned my own clarinet and then I was able to get a 10 flute when I took it my third year. 11 Q. You describe music becoming a big role in your life, 12 taking up a big role in your life, why was that? 13 A. Music become like my social life in kind of a weird 14 way, I already said I was kind of a dork. But 15 instead of going out to the movies or hanging out 16 with friends, I just practiced, that's all I did. 17 And I mean having two to three or 18 four instruments to play, there was a lot of 19 practicing going on. 20 So, I was able to be in the All City 21 Detroit Music Band, and I went there on Saturdays 22 instead of hanging out with friends and played in 23 that band. And that gave me an opportunity to play 24 in different festivals and competitions. 25 Q. Why was it important for you to have music as GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 36 1 something to do instead of, say, hanging out? 2 A. I felt something like I had to have the discipline, 3 and I made music my discipline. I felt like if I 4 would ever go out with my friends or like hanging 5 out, not that they were bad people at all, that's 6 not the case. 7 But I just felt like, you know, I 8 would be risking something and I didn't want to do 9 that. And so I just kind of made music my 10 everything. 11 Q. What was it that you couldn't be? 12 A. I felt like I couldn't be too, I don't want to use 13 the term loose, because I felt like it would somehow 14 interfere with my education. And I had made that my 15 top priority to get through Cass. 16 Q. Would you describe music as being the kind of an 17 escape? 18 A. Yes, it was an escape for me from everything that 19 you could think about from, what the city of Detroit 20 looks like, to all the pressures in life. I just 21 kind of ignored everything and focused on music. 22 That's absolutely what I did. 23 Q. I want to draw your attention to any qualities that 24 exist between Cass and the suburbs. At some point 25 did you conclude that the education you were GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 37 1 receiving at Cass, while better than what was 2 provided at Drew, was not equal to the suburbs? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. When was that? 5 A. That was my senior year in high school when we went 6 to the Michigan School Solo Band Orchestra Festival 7 and it was on the state level. You have a district 8 left and you have a state level, and we had already 9 played at the district level. 10 At the district level we went to 11 another school in Detroit, and the schools didn't 12 look any different from Cass. So it was life went 13 on and that's normal. 14 But when we went to Livonia Churchill 15 High School in the suburbs of Detroit, it made me 16 realize that education was different. I always knew 17 that there was something strange about not having a 18 French book, or having no teacher for advanced 19 course in government for an entire year, I knew 20 there was something wrong with those things. 21 But I didn't realize the extent. I 22 didn't realize that it could possibly be different 23 at other places that weren't inside of Detroit. 24 And when I went to that Livonia 25 Churchill High School for that music competition, my GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 38 1 music teacher had once told me that my clarinet 2 sounded like a Buick because it was so like cheap. 3 And so he gave me the one high qualify clarinets 4 that we had at Cass Tech, which is for one student. 5 And the rest of the instruments were 6 put together by rubber bands and tape to keep them 7 together. 8 And when I went to that competition 9 there was definitely a feeling of shock and hurt. 10 The first thing that I ever noticed was that they 11 had real sports facilities, they had a real football 12 stadium. They had tennis courts. 13 And beyond thought that what I 14 thought was extremely extra was the soccer field, 15 because I was like who plays soccer, right. And at 16 Cass we have a football field, but there is no real 17 stadium. 18 There are bleachers that sit in 19 between the parking lot where people park their cars 20 two feet away from the bleachers. And before the 21 football game at Cass could ever start there would 22 always be an announcement, faculty, could you please 23 move your cars so that the football game could 24 start. 25 And so was it was so different there. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 39 1 Like these kids they had stuff that I had never seen 2 before. And beyond that, when we went inside of the 3 building and saw the instruments that these kids 4 had, they had top line instruments. 5 I thought that my R-13 clarinet that 6 I had got from school was like really good, and I 7 was about to play something, you know. But these 8 kids had everything, they had like marble mouth 9 pieces, just their own personal instruments or the 10 school instruments. They had, you know, things that 11 were needed. 12 And I knew that that was going to 13 have an effect on me in the competition. If you 14 have a clarinet that's rubber banded together, 15 you're not going to have good intonation at all, and 16 you get marks for that. 17 And so that was absolutely a feeling 18 of shock, but beyond that hurt when I first saw the 19 differences. 20 Q. And how did the students at Livonia Churchill--first 21 of all, what was the race of most of those students? 22 A. Most of those students were white. 23 Q. Were there any black students? 24 A. I didn't see any. They weren't from Detroit. 25 Q. How did those students act towards the students from GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 40 1 Cass? 2 A. I think, well, that school district is very 3 segregated as well as in Detroit. So, for a lot of 4 those students it was the first time interacting 5 with other black students. 6 And so they would come over and try 7 to strike up a conversation or whatever, while we 8 would be in the middle of practice, you know, 9 practicing to go in front of the judge. 10 And they would be like, what are you 11 going to play, you know, and where are you from and 12 all of those questions and stuff. 13 And it was kind of embarrassing to be 14 at a state level competition with white students 15 kind of being like, you know, all the confidence in 16 the world that they had. 17 And then with us going, having 18 confidence in the first place, you know, because we 19 didn't know anything would be different. But 20 getting there and feeling like, you know, I'm not 21 sure what's about to take place because we don't 22 have the same type of instruments, or the same 23 quality of instruments that these students have. So 24 it's kind of a very odd interaction. That turns 25 into a moment of like extreme embarrassment. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 41 1 Q. And can those differences, in your opinion, be 2 attributed to class? 3 A. No, because--I said earlier that Cass Tech was 4 pretty much mixed, and there are a lot of middle 5 class students that go there. You can tell by the 6 cars that people drove. 7 And so to me it was never a question 8 of class, because I was like, well, you know, I may 9 be poor but I know that there's middle class 10 students at Cass, and these students are middle 11 class. 12 But that wasn't the difference, the 13 difference was race. Those students were white and 14 we were black. And that was why they were given 15 every opportunity, every type of resource that we 16 just didn't even know existed. 17 Q. I want to ask you some questions about how you 18 became involved in the case. Somewhere near the 19 time of the Livonia Churchill competition, did you 20 come to hear a presentation about this lawsuit? 21 A. Yes, I heard a presentation by an organization 22 called the Coalition to Defend Affirmative Action By 23 Any Means Necessary. They gave a presentation to a 24 group of students in which I was a part of. 25 Q. Where was this presentation? GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 42 1 A. It was at Cass. It was in one of their auditoriums. 2 Q. About how many other people heard it? 3 A. I would say about 200 other people heard it. 4 Q. Did you decide on the basis of that talk to become 5 and intervenor in this case? 6 A. Yes. It was that and seeing the differences in 7 suburban and the city schools, and participating and 8 rallying the fence for affirmative action. All of 9 that kind of combined and made me want to be an 10 intervenor. 11 Q. Did you also shortly after that attend a 12 demonstration at U of M, University of Ann Arbor in 13 a support of affirmative action? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And was that your senior year at Cass? 16 A. Yes, it was. 17 Q. How did you feel as a result of being at that 18 demonstration about your possibility of going to the 19 University of Michigan? 20 A. Well, that made me apply, because I hadn't applied 21 to the University of Michigan yet. I had already 22 made up my mind I was going to attend college, I was 23 going continue to be a dork, isolated myself just 24 doing my work. But going to that demonstration made 25 me want to apply to the University of Michigan. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 43 1 Q. Why? 2 A. To become someone who could fight to preserve 3 integration and affirmative action. When I tell 4 people that, they probably don't believe me. But if 5 not for that I probably wouldn't have ever--I 6 wouldn't have applied to Michigan had I known about 7 the attack on affirmative action. And just because 8 of that, I knew I had to come here to Michigan. 9 Q. Had you taken the standardized test that you 10 submitted with your application? 11 A. To Michigan? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What test was that? 15 A. I took the ACT. 16 Q. What was your score on that test? 17 A. 21. 18 Q. What was your GPA? 19 A. From Cass I had a 3.7. 20 Q. Were you then admitted to the University of 21 Michigan? 22 A. Yes, I was. 23 Q. Do you think you would have gotten in without 24 affirmative action? 25 A. I do not. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 44 1 Q. Why is that? 2 A. Because I know that affirmative action--the only 3 reason affirmative action is in place is because 4 there are institutions of education in this country 5 were segregated, that's the only reason it's here. 6 It's not some magic puzzle or whatever. 7 You know, it's not very difficult to 8 understand. It is because people were fighting to 9 integrate. And if you don't take that into account, 10 if you don't say that, you know, your university or 11 your institution of education, if you don't just 12 tell the truth that before affirmative action was 13 created, black and other minority students weren't 14 getting into this university, I'm not going there. 15 I'm not confident at all that I 16 wouldn't have got in before that, because it 17 was--affirmative action is what made it possible for 18 the university to become even remotely integrated. 19 Q. Do you think that the test score that you received 20 on the ACT reflected who you are? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you think it reflected whether or not you 23 deserved the education that Michigan can provide? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You have heard testimony about race being just GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 45 1 another factor in admissions, like being an Olympic 2 diver or concert pianist, is that correct? 3 A. No, it's not. You can't equate race with anything. 4 There's nothing that you can say, well, race is like 5 X, Y or Z, nothing else exist. Because race, the 6 term race has a very historical meaning to it. 7 Because the black race, you have to 8 identify that the black race had to overcome 9 slavery, had to overcome segregation. And now it's 10 fighting to keep the opportunity, just to have an 11 opportunity to go to hire education institutions. 12 And it's not the same. Nobody is 13 trying to keep tuba players from going to the 14 University of Michigan. They're trying to keep 15 black people and other minority people from going to 16 the University of Michigan. 17 Q. You're a very competent musician? It's okay, you 18 can admit it. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Would you ever separate your mastering four 21 instruments from growing up black in Detroit? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Have you ever seen your musicianship as being 24 somehow separate from being black? 25 A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 46 1 Q. You said earlier that music became your escape from 2 the conditions in Detroit. Could you ever then 3 separate your relationship to music from being black 4 in Detroit? 5 A. No. Not my particular relationship, no. 6 Q. Can anyone understand the person that you are 7 without understanding your life as a black person in 8 this society? 9 A. Absolutely not. 10 Q. Can anyone make decisions that are going to impact 11 your future without understanding your life as a 12 black person in this society? 13 A. No. 14 Q. At some point did you make a decision to attend 15 U of M? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. I just want to talk some now about the atmosphere at 18 the University of Michigan? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. You attend the College of Literature, Science and 21 the Arts? 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 Q. Is that where you are now? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What year did you go there? GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 47 1 A. In 1998. 2 Q. And how old were you? 3 A. I was 17. 4 Q. And how old are you now? 5 A. 20. 6 Q. Has the University of Michigan been a race neutral 7 experience for you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Can you say more about that? 10 A. When I went to U of M, for the first time I realized 11 that I am a minority. I was never a minority in the 12 city of Detroit, because Detroit is over 90 percent 13 black. And there were things that went along with 14 being a minority at U of M and in Ann Arbor. 15 Q. What kinds of things? 16 A. You want to be a little more specific. 17 Q. Can you different give an example, say, from class, 18 were there any examples in class that made it stand 19 out to you? 20 A. Just on a general basis at U of M. I think people 21 have assumptions of how black students will act or 22 how they're performing in classes. But beyond that, 23 because I am a minority I do experience racism on a 24 very daily basis at the University of Michigan. 25 And I remember in my freshman year GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 48 1 the first semester after I had taken--after I had 2 went to Summerbridge, I took a biology class. And 3 it was the first day of class and the teacher, the 4 graduate student kind of went around doing like an 5 ice breaker. And it's kind of odd for college, but 6 it's there so. 7 And she went around asking people 8 what's their favorite color, what's your favorite 9 movie and why. And I was one of two black students 10 in that class. 11 And when she got to me her question 12 was, what type of animal do you think you look like 13 and why. And I don't think she would have asked 14 that question of me if I was white. 15 And because of the fact that white 16 people have since, you know, people decided that 17 they could go to Africa and bring black people to 18 this country, have been thought of being less than 19 human, less of a person, it was written into our 20 constitution that black people were less than a 21 person. 22 So, for her to ask me what type of 23 animal I thought I looked like, you know, was really 24 offensive and she knew it, and everybody else in the 25 class knew it. Everybody kind of like gasped or GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 49 1 like made a reaction and I was just staring at her, 2 because I couldn't believe that she had asked me 3 that question. 4 But she acted like absolutely nothing 5 was wrong. I mean even the white students were 6 acting like, oh my God, I can't believe she asked 7 that question. And she was like, so what is your 8 answer. 9 And I was like, well, you know what, 10 I don't think I look like any type of animal, 11 because I'm a human being. And she was like, well, 12 that's a great answer. 13 And that really did have an effect on 14 my performance in that class. I had a million 15 things going through my mind at that moment. My 16 initial thought was that I should really slap her, 17 and then I was like, well, I probably shouldn't do 18 that because I probably will get kicked out of the 19 university for that. 20 And then I thought, well, maybe I 21 should drop the class. And then I was like, I 22 really need this class. And I'm a really consistent 23 person, so I hate when I feel like I'm not in 24 control of my schedule, so I have to keep it the 25 same way. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 50 1 And I was like, I can't really be 2 like unorganized at this point, this semester has 3 already started. And it was just a million things 4 that was going through my mind. And I ended up 5 leaving that for at least four months. 6 Q. Why did it take you that long, or did you at some 7 point--sorry. 8 Did you at some point say something? 9 A. Yes, I said something at the very end of the 10 semester, after the last meeting of our class. I 11 sent her an E-mail, it was like that question was 12 really offensive and you should never ever ask 13 anybody that question. 14 You know, you should really never ask 15 anybody black that question, because you have grown 16 up in this society and you know what that means. It 17 took me four months to do that. 18 Q. Why did it take that long? 19 A. Because I wasn't sure how to react, I was constantly 20 thinking, like even in class is there something that 21 I could have said differently. How can I really 22 respond to this. Is she going to be mad if I raise 23 it now, and will that affect my grade. 24 And so it was the first time that I 25 had dealt with a face-to-face instance of racism, it GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 51 1 was the very first time and I didn't know what to 2 do. 3 Q. Did it wear on you that is was unresolved for that 4 long? 5 A. Yes. Because I kind of felt, you know, not that I 6 ever thought that she would forget that she asked me 7 that question, because she certainly did not. She 8 knew exactly what I was talking about when I 9 E-mailed her. 10 But I was like, it is too late to say 11 something. And I thought about it every single day 12 that I was in that class. 13 Q. Would you say that that effected your whole 14 relationship to that class? 15 A. Yes. I'm not a big biology fan, but I'm certainly 16 not know. 17 Q. Did it diminish your enthusiasm? 18 A. Yes. It was my first semester and I went into there 19 thinking that I could just go and be a student like 20 everybody else. But that wasn't the case. 21 Q. Do you still replay that scene in your mind today 22 when you think about your classes? 23 A. Absolutely. I think about it a lot, and it's not 24 that--I did draw lessons from that instance. And 25 it's not that I have a blue print for how to act the GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 52 1 next time someone says something racist to me. It's 2 not like I said, okay, I'm going to do this and I'm 3 going to say that. You know, I don't have a blue 4 print for it. 5 All I know now is that I have to say 6 something, and I am going to say something. How I 7 will say it, what I will say, I have no idea because 8 you're never prepared when someone says something 9 like that to you. 10 Q. It always takes you by surprise? 11 A. Absolutely. 12 Q. Did that incident change you? 13 A. I would say yes. I mean I always knew that, I kind 14 of knew in the back of my mind that when I went to 15 U of M I was going to be a minority, and that, you 16 know, people do have their own stereotypes and ideas 17 of what black people are like. 18 But I never knew what exactly that 19 would feel like. That made my realize that U of M 20 was going to be a completely different experience 21 from anything I had ever experienced in my life. 22 Q. Are you ever in a setting at the University of 23 Michigan where you feel like you are isolated from 24 those kind of comments being made to you? 25 A. No. After that you never let down your guard, you GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 53 1 always--you don't expect something to happen, you 2 just know that it's a possibility of something 3 happening. 4 But you never allow yourself to be 5 caught off guard or relaxed. Like nobody is going 6 to say anything rude to me, it is always kind 7 of--you never let your guard down. 8 Q. And is that a burden that you have to carry because 9 of racism? 10 A. Yes. It's something that black students, they don't 11 think about that. You don't go and say, well, I'm 12 going to go to this new class and if you're white 13 you don't go there and say that, well, I hope 14 that--I can't be late because I don't want the 15 professor to think that black people are always late 16 and that's why I'm late, you know, I have to be like 17 extra early. 18 White students don't have to think 19 about that, that's a burden. When I will be there, 20 where I will sit. I don't sit in the back of the 21 class, because you don't want the professor to think 22 that you're slacking off or lazy and then you're 23 going to skate by, you sit in the front. White 24 students don't think about those type of things. 25 Q. When you respond to racist incidents, do you ever GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 54 1 feel satisfied with your response? 2 A. No. I mean there's always something you can think 3 of later that you could have put it in another way, 4 because you're always trying to convince somebody of 5 how their point is wrong. You can't say that to me. 6 You know, you're always trying to 7 convince them of why they shouldn't say that. And 8 so when you're thinking about it in that way, you're 9 always thinking I could have made the point better 10 if I had said this or if I had said that. You can 11 always think of a million things that you could have 12 done. 13 Q. Does it ever run through your mind that no matter 14 what you say they may not change their mind? 15 A. Yes, there are people like that. And I really don't 16 know how to respond to that, like you try everything 17 that you can to explain to that person, and they're 18 just fundamentally racist. It's really dysfunction 19 that some people can have those ideas and beliefs. 20 Q. How does it feel to walk around campus? 21 A. Because most people who walk around campus don't 22 look like me, you do feel ultra isolated even just 23 walking downtown or walking to a store or something 24 like that. 25 And the main way I can really GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 55 1 illustrate that for you is that, I have often had 2 conversations with my friends and thought this to 3 myself that when I first went to U of M and I would 4 walk down the street and a white person was coming 5 by, I would always step out of the way. 6 Whether I had to step in the snow or 7 the mud or whatever it was. And I came to realize I 8 was like, you know, I'm always stepping in the mud, 9 people never move out of my way, you know, I was 10 kind of like that. 11 It almost as if people expected me to 12 move because I'm black, and, of course, they had the 13 right because the sidewalk was made for them and not 14 for me. 15 So, I realized that, I was like, 16 well, I'm not stepping in the mud no more. You 17 know, I'm not walking in the snow, I'm going walk on 18 the sidewalk like everybody else. They don't feel 19 the pressure to move out of my way, why is it that I 20 feel the pressure to move out of their way. 21 So now I don't do that anymore. It 22 took me a while to realize that I was even doing 23 that. And that was almost the rule in the south in 24 Birmingham when segregation was there, that you had 25 to move out of the white peoples way. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 56 1 And my mom is from Birmingham and she 2 never related that story to me. For some reason or 3 another, it was already in my mind that that is what 4 I was supposed to do. 5 And so now I don't move anymore, and 6 sometimes I bump into people, we bump into each 7 other and sometime we don't. Because I have just as 8 much as the right to walk on the sidewalk as 9 everybody else. 10 And it's kind of a very basic thing. 11 First I thought it was just me, and I was like, you 12 know, you guys like find that people don't move, 13 like people won't even scoot over a little bit when 14 you're walking down the street. 15 And all of my friends was like, yes, 16 yes, it was like everybody's story. They had been 17 wondering if everybody else was like thinking the 18 same too, if you just felt like if you were like 19 crazy. 20 But I was like, well, I know it's 21 just not me. And it was other black students who 22 had that very same experience. And white students, 23 I mean you never--I never heard a white student say, 24 yes, I just feel like people just disrespect me 25 because they try to knock me off the sidewalk. It's GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 57 1 not the same. 2 Q. Have there been other examples of racism in your 3 classes? 4 A. Yes. Another instance happened in my sophomore 5 year, first semester again. Nice way to start off 6 every year. We were discussing theories of Teddy 7 Roosevelt in my history class. And he had some 8 really racist views of black people. 9 And so we had this reading, and the 10 point of the reading was that sometimes even though 11 people were, you know, had so much power and 12 presidents of the United States, their racism could 13 effect foreign policy, it could effect whatever it 14 is, the way that they ran the country. 15 And so we were supposed to be having 16 the discussion in my class, but it turned out to go 17 the wrong way. And this woman in my class, the 18 graduate instructor asked, what do you think about 19 what Teddy is saying here. 20 So, this woman says, well, I agree 21 that black people are savage like, because they 22 don't have their own country, and they just kind of 23 wander around the world. And that she believed in 24 biological determinism. 25 And the graduate student instructor, GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 58 1 he just kind of changed the subject really fast and 2 hoping that nobody caught that, but it didn't work. 3 She was completely confident in what she said, she 4 had the paper right there and nobody else said 5 anything. Like nobody else in the class said 6 anything. 7 And I was really mad, and it was only 8 me and another black woman in there. And the other 9 black woman she started crying, and she was just 10 sitting there, she wasn't saying anything, she was 11 just sitting there crying. 12 And I was like, whoa, I'm not about 13 to start crying, because I'm about to go. So, I was 14 like I'm not about to have a breakdown in this 15 classroom or whatever. 16 So, I got up and I left, I got my 17 stuff and I left. And then I felt really bad for 18 leaving her in there. Why I felt like it was my 19 responsibility to go back for her, I don't know. 20 Probably because we're both black. 21 So, I went back after the class and 22 talked to the GSI. And I knew that all the white 23 students in the class did not agree with this woman, 24 but they couldn't voice that, they wouldn't say it. 25 And one of the white guys tried to GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 59 1 illustrate that we didn't agree with that by giving 2 me a compliment about my hair. Which I didn't like 3 that for the simple reason I had my hair in braids 4 for several weeks at that point, and he had seen it 5 several times. 6 So, it was just that day he was like, 7 Erika, your hair is beautiful, I just want to let 8 you know that. I was like thanks. 9 And so I talked to the GSI and, you 10 know, he agreed that the woman was kind of out of 11 line, and he suggested I talk to the professor. 12 So, when I went to the professor's 13 office hours she had had an emergency so she didn't 14 have office hours that day. So, I went home, I was 15 like I will talk to her at another time. 16 But the professor called me in my 17 room, in my dorm room. And she was kind of like, 18 well, your GSI told me what happened, and he told me 19 that this woman had said stuff before, and I was 20 like, yes, she has and he hasn't said anything. 21 And so she was like, well, you 22 know, someone really needs to say something to her 23 and I was like, I agree. And she was like, and I'm 24 not trying to put any pressure on you, but I think 25 you're the person to do it. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 60 1 But at the same time she was like, 2 well, don't feel any pressure to say something 3 because you're black, you don't have to represent 4 the black race. And I was like I know that, but she 5 said but I really think you should say something to 6 her. 7 And she was like, well, what I'll do 8 is I'll send out an E-mail to everybody to be kind 9 of saying that the professor doesn't agree with this 10 type of behavior. So, I was like okay. 11 And I talked to my GSI again and he 12 was supposed to explain the purpose of reading the 13 Teddy Roosevelt piece anyway. 14 But what actually happened when I got 15 to class, the professor sent out an E-mail saying 16 that you have to respect people's opinions and their 17 views. 18 And it came off really odd because I 19 never said anything to her. I didn't say anything 20 to the woman, I got up and left and the black woman 21 sat there and cried. And I wasn't going to sit 22 there crying. 23 So, it came off that I was being 24 disrespectful of this woman and her views, that she 25 had the right to say whatever she wanted to. No GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 61 1 help from the professor. 2 And then when I got to the class, the 3 graduate student instructor was supposed to explain 4 what the point of making us read the Teddy Roosevelt 5 piece in the first was, but he didn't end up doing 6 that. 7 He ended up saying okay, you know, 8 good afternoon. Everybody saw the professor's 9 E-mail and everybody was like, yes, we saw it. And 10 he was like, and now Erika wants to talk to the 11 class. 12 So, I ended up having to explain to 13 the class how that made me and the other black girl 14 feel. And explain that that wasn't the point of the 15 reading in the first place. 16 I had to do two jobs. I had to say, 17 you know, you can't treat black people any type of 18 way, you can't say any old thing that you want to 19 say. And then I had to be like, and that wasn't the 20 point of the reading anyway. And that was another 21 instance. 22 Q. Do you think that this action like that and the 23 thoughts that they produced for you have a negative 24 impact on your grade point average? 25 A. Absolutely. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 62 1 Q. Why? 2 A. I have more than one job as a black student at the 3 University, I should get paid for this. I'm just 4 joking. But you always have to think about being 5 the black student in that class. 6 You always have to deal with ignorant 7 or racist comments, be they on purpose or by 8 mistake, it doesn't matter it has the same effect. 9 And I'm not saying that all the white 10 student meet after class and think of things to say, 11 but that's not the case. But whether it's out of 12 not being exposed to integration, or just someone 13 who just has it in for black people or other 14 minority students, you always have that in the back 15 of your mind. 16 You have those instances and this is 17 where you have to take on multiple roles where you 18 have to deal with those comments and still come back 19 the next day and be ready to learn. Those things 20 effect you everyday, everyday. 21 And I mean if I dropped every class 22 where someone said something racist to me, I 23 probably would not be able to graduate in a number 24 of years. So that's not an option. 25 You have to keep going everyday no GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 63 1 matter what people say and deal with that, and still 2 come out a good student. 3 Q. Did this student think that what she was saying was 4 racist? 5 A. No, she didn't. It was really funny to me, because 6 when I talked to the class that day she tried to 7 interrupt me before I even finished, and so the GSI 8 was like you can't interrupt her, and she was, like 9 okay. 10 And just by the fact of me saying 11 that, you know, you can't be saying that kind of 12 stuff, especially thinking that nobody is going to 13 say anything back, she started crying. 14 And I was like, well, I didn't really 15 care that she was like sitting there crying, like 16 you know, I'm not racist, I would never say anything 17 racist. I'm the last person to be racist. 18 And so I was like, but you did say 19 that you thought black people are savage like, and 20 she was like, well, yes, I did say that. 21 And then I was like, and you did say 22 that you believe in biological determinism and 23 that's why black people were generally like in lower 24 socioeconomic classes. 25 She was like, yes, I do believe in GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 64 1 biological determinism, but I would never use that 2 to be racist. And so I was really shocked by that 3 and I really didn't know what to think after she 4 said that. 5 I was kind of like, okay, well, that 6 is racist to think someone is biologically inferior 7 than you. And by your mercy, you won't use that 8 argument to be racist, thank you, you know. 9 Q. Does a day go by, or even an hour when you're not 10 conscious of being black? 11 A. No. 12 Q. The assumptions that people make about you because 13 of your race, do you think that they are made 14 because of the existence of affirmative action? 15 A. Absolutely not. The assumptions of black 16 inferiority and they use this word stigma, was 17 created long before affirmative action was ever 18 created. 19 That's why people didn't want to 20 integrate their schools, that was long before 21 affirmative action. When they wanted to keep the 22 south segregated and those students who were 23 attending schools like Linda Brown who was involved 24 in the Brown versus Board Education case. 25 She didn't feel stigmatized because GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 65 1 of something called affirmative action, because it 2 didn't exist then. If she felt stigmatized it was 3 because people had racist views of her and 4 assumptions about her. 5 And affirmative action is to offset 6 those. To offset those assumptions and stigmas that 7 people already had. And to make it possible for 8 people to be able to integrate the institution and 9 go to the schools that they want to go to. 10 Q. Is there anything that you would say is the hardest 11 thing about being black at the University of 12 Michigan? 13 A. The hardest thing about being black at U of M is 14 trying to hold onto your own culture while 15 succeeding as a minority in an environment where you 16 are a minority. 17 People have all of these different 18 theories about what it takes to be successful in 19 American society. And some people will say that you 20 have to pretend like you're not black when you're 21 around white people. 22 And then when you go back home you 23 can just kind of like be yourself again, you can 24 relax. That is very deep at Michigan. 25 And as a black student at Michigan, GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 66 1 you have to fight to keep a sense of yourself, to be 2 yourself. I'm not going to pretend like I'm 3 somebody that I'm not ever. 4 I'm not going to talk the way you 5 want me to talk, I'm not going to act the way you 6 want me to act because you think it's the way to act 7 in order to be successful. I'm not going to do 8 that. 9 And it's a daily fight and a daily 10 struggle to be yourself and to succeed there. 11 Because a lot of students won't fight, they won't 12 fight against racism. 13 And if you don't fight against the 14 racism, if you don't say nothing when people say 15 those things to you, you just swallow it all, and in 16 swallowing it all they try to prove to the white 17 students that, you know, I am just like you except 18 I'm black. 19 And I have my culture and then their 20 culture is exactly the same except for the mistake 21 that I was born black, and I'm not going to do that. 22 And that's a really hard struggle for 23 most black students there. Is to be yourself 24 without people--without feeling like you have to 25 conform to everybody else's idea or the majority of GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 67 1 ideas. Whatever everybody else think is the 2 successful way, or the road to success. 3 Q. You referred to being in the minority at the 4 University of Michigan. Do you feel today that you 5 would have been better off if you had attended a 6 historically black college or university? 7 A. No, because there are absolutely benefits of going 8 to an integrated institution. I wouldn't go to a 9 historical black college or university, because they 10 suffer from a lot of things that I suffered from at 11 Cass Tech. 12 They don't get that much funding. 13 There's not, you know, a great amount of 14 opportunities there. And now that the institutions 15 in themselves are not worthy of going to, but you 16 just don't have the same opportunities as you would 17 if you went to an integrated institution. 18 And I value deeply the fight for 19 integration, and that is a tradition that I very 20 deeply stand in. 21 Q. In the class where the woman made the comment about 22 biological determinism, on the other side of things 23 is there a way which you stepped forward as a leader 24 to that class? 25 A. Yes. I'm on the student government at Michigan. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 68 1 Q. In the example about the woman who made the comment 2 that she was a biological determinence, what role 3 did you play to that class as a whole? 4 A. Beyond explaining what the purpose of the reading 5 and the class discussion was, I played the role of 6 trying to educate everybody about, you know, I want 7 to say the benefits of integration. 8 But also making come to light and 9 creating discussion for those students about how do 10 you deal with instances of racism. Even for the 11 whites students, because the class is majority 12 white. It made them understand deeply the benefits 13 of integrated schools. 14 Q. Do you think that those white students who agreed 15 with you, but who did you speak, saw you as their 16 leader? 17 A. I think so. I mean when I was talking to the class, 18 there were white students who agreed with me but 19 said nothing by nodding their heads while I was 20 talking. 21 And I did something that they 22 couldn't do, obviously they didn't feel like they 23 could say something to the woman. 24 Q. What is your GPA? 25 A. Right now my grade point average is 3.0. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 69 1 Q. Are there other ways in which you have shown 2 leadership on the campus? 3 A. Yes, I'm on the Michigan Student Assembly. I'm a 4 literature, science and arts representative. 5 Q. When did you first get elected in that position? 6 A. My first year there during the first election. I 7 ran with the Defend Affirmative Action Party and was 8 elected with six or seven other people in the party. 9 Q. Would that have been a campus wide election? 10 A. Yes, it was. 11 Q. And that would have been your first semester at the 12 University of Michigan? 13 A. Yes, it was. 14 Q. How have you used that role as a representative on 15 the Student Assembly to be a leader? 16 A. I've been able to be one of the leaders in the fight 17 for defending affirmative action on the campus, 18 through being a part of the Defend Affirmative 19 Action part on the assembly. 20 I have been able to help to educate 21 the campus about what affirmative action really is 22 and how it works. I have been able to travel the 23 country to different colleges and universities from 24 Philadelphia to U.C. Berkley talking about the 25 benefits for affirmative action and integration. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 70 1 I have written numerous resolutions, 2 spoke at numerous rallies numerous forums. I have 3 just kind of been out there. 4 Q. And for all of that, what will that amount to if 5 this case is decided against affirmative action? 6 A. Absolutely nothing. Only three years of hard work 7 going nowhere. 8 Q. Have you had experiences on the campus in which you 9 saw that the ignorance and racism of white people 10 could be changed? 11 A. Absolutely. 12 Q. Could you say something about that? 13 A. This past summer I took a History of Detroit class, 14 and at first when I was getting ready to go into the 15 class I was kind of like, well, I know we're going 16 to have stereotypes who are going to come to the 17 class about what Detroit is like and how people in 18 Detroit act, and their own theories for why the city 19 is so run down. I really didn't feel like hearing 20 that, but I wanted to take the class anyway. 21 And I took the class and there were 22 five black students and the rest of the students 23 were white. So the class is about maybe 17 students 24 in the class. 25 And people did come in with their own GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 71 1 stereotypes of why their mom didn't like Coleman 2 Young, or what they thought about what caused the 3 economic deficiencies in the city. 4 And that mean that the beginning of 5 the class I was on the defensive, I was like well, 6 whatever you say is the truth. That's kind of how 7 it is when you're in the minority, it doesn't matter 8 what people say. All you know to identify with is 9 that you're black. 10 And whatever they're saying that 11 sounds like a stereotype, you're like, no, that's 12 not true and the basis of that is that you're black. 13 But the discussion was able to move 14 beyond that and like you're reading the books and 15 just discussion, we even took a trip to Detroit. 16 The white students who had come with 17 assumptions and stereotypes from their parents in 18 the beginning of the class, had changed their mind, 19 and that meant a lot to me. 20 That meant that I didn't have to be 21 on the defensive when they would say Detroit is kind 22 of like run down and I would say, no, it's not, 23 which is completely not true, right? 24 Well, I was able to say, well, it is 25 run down because X, Y and Z and agree with them. We GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 72 1 were able to agree with theories that we all thought 2 was like the problems. And that was really 3 inspiring to me. 4 And when I see those white students, 5 some of the white students I do talk to when I see 6 them in passing. They do speak to me and 7 acknowledge my presence. And that's really a good 8 feeling, I really like that class. 9 Q. Have you ever felt afraid for your safety in 10 Ann Arbor? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is it different from how you felt in Detroit? 13 A. It is different, because there's the possibility of 14 danger in both places, but it was a very different 15 danger. 16 It was like when I was out there 17 catching the bus at 6:30 and 6:50 in the morning 18 when I was in high school, if anything happened to 19 me it would have been a random act of violence or 20 whatever, or something random. 21 But in Ann Arbor I always think about 22 being attacked because of the fact that I'm black. 23 I never forgot that the Klan, Klu Klux Klan came to 24 rally in 1998 right after I had got accepted into 25 the university. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 73 1 And when I walk down the street, I do 2 think about that. I do think about there being a 3 potential Klans supporter. And I often hear people 4 say that the Klan has a right to speak, and they're 5 not really doing anything they're just kind of 6 playing. 7 But those people aren't the people 8 who are going to get tied to a--potentially tied to 9 the back of a pickup truck and dragged to death, 10 that person is going to be me because I am black. 11 So I always think about that kind of 12 stuff when I'm walking down the street. And it is a 13 different type of fear. 14 MS. MASLEY: I'm going to take a few 15 minutes to confer with counsel. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MS. MASLEY: 18 Q. Erika, you said that it took affirmative action for 19 you to be able to get to the University of Michigan, 20 is that correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Despite all of your achievements, do you think now 23 that without affirmative action you would be able to 24 get through the University of Michigan Law School? 25 A. No. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 74 1 Q. Would you ever feel given your whole life and your 2 experiences on the University of Michigan campus, 3 would you ever feel ashamed to rely on affirmative 4 action to gain admission into the University of 5 Michigan Law School? 6 A. Absolutely not. Because some people try to make it 7 very complicated, very complicated explanation why 8 race needs to be used in admission. 9 And my simple answer is, if you don't 10 take race into account these institutions would not 11 be integrated. There would hardly ever--there is 12 always one or two, and one or two is not enough. 13 One or two black people in an entire school, that's 14 not enough. 15 And I would never be ashamed of a 16 university, A, realizing and saying that, yes, some 17 years ago we wouldn't allow black students into this 18 university. 19 I'll tell you, I have a class right 20 now, the History of the University of Michigan. And 21 when that university was established, there was no 22 black students there, there were no women there. 23 And for the admissions policy to take 24 that into account and to say, yes, the society has 25 discriminated against black and other minority GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 75 1 people, and without these programs, we wouldn't let 2 them into the university. So you have to take race 3 into account. 4 And I would never be ashamed of that. 5 I mean a simple acknowledgement of history, I don't 6 have a problem with that. 7 Q. And even if you could apply and you could get in 8 without affirmative action, if it were a question of 9 it being one or two, would you go? 10 A. Absolutely not. I would never participate in a 11 university that cannot admit to the truth. Cannot 12 admit to the truth that black and other minority 13 people are still being discriminated against, and 14 have been discriminated against in the past. 15 I want no part of that. Because 16 wherever I go to school, wherever I go to learn, the 17 truth has to be told. And if that's not there, you 18 don't take that into account, I can't go to that 19 university. 20 Q. Would you rather not have gone to the University of 21 Michigan? 22 A. I'm glad I did. I mean I like it there. 23 Q. Are you glad you've made this fight? 24 A. Absolutely. It's a fight I have to make. I didn't 25 feel like I had much choice. GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL 76 1 Q.