1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN 2 SOUTHERN DIVISION 3 4 BARBARA GRUTTER, For herself and all others 5 Similarly situated, 6 Plaintiff, 7 v. Civil Action No. 97-CV-75928 8 LEE BOLLINGER, JEFFREY LEHMAN, DENNIS SHIELDS, and REGENTS OF 9 THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, 10 Defendants. _________________________________________/ 11 12 BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 13 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7th, 2001 14 15 BEFORE THE HONORABLE BERNARD FRIEDMAN United States District Judge 16 Theodore Levin United States Courthouse 231 West Lafayette Boulevard, Room 238 17 Detroit, Michigan 18 - - - 19 Appearances: 20 Kirk O. Kolbo, Esq., 21 R. Lawrence Purdy, Esq., 22 On behalf of the Plaintiff, 23 24 John Payton, Esq., Craig Goldblatt, Esq., 25 On behalf of the Defendants Bollinger, et al, 2 1 - - - 2 APPEARANCES (Continued): 3 4 George B. Washington, Esq. Miranda K. S. Massie, Esq. 5 On behalf of Intervening Defendants. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Joan L. Morgan, Official Court Reporter 21 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography. Transcript produced by computer-aided transcription. 22 23 24 25 3 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS: PAGE: 3 CHRYSTAL JAMES 4 Direct Examination by Ms. Masley 4 5 6 WALTER ALLEN 7 Direct Examination by Ms. Massie 76 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Payton 176 9 10 11 12 E X H I B I T S 13 14 RECEIVED 15 Trial Exhibit Number 156 126 16 Trial Exhibit Number 157 120 17 Trial Exhibit Number 158 120 18 Trial Exhibit Number 168, 169 112 19 Trial Exhibit Number 176 173 20 Trial Exhibit Number 177 173 21 Trial Exhibit Number 211 119 22 Trial Exhibit Number 212 119 23 24 25 BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 4 1 Detroit, Michigan 2 Wednesday, February 7th, 2001 3 9:10 a.m. 4 - - 5 MS. MASSIE: We'd like to call Chrystal Blossom 6 James. 7 THE COURT: Okay. If you would be kind enough to 8 raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to 9 tell the truth in the matter now pending before this Court? 10 MS. JAMES: I do. 11 THE COURT: You may have a seat. 12 MS. MASLEY: Jodi Masley, for the record. 13 C H R Y S T A L J A M E S . 14 being first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, was examined 15 and testified upon his oath as follows: 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MS. MASLEY: 18 Q Ms. James what is your address? 19 A My address is -- 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry, can I have your full name, 21 one more time? 22 THE WITNESS: My full name is Chrystal Blossom 23 James. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. 25 A And my address is 11811 Venus Boulevard, Apartment 324, BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 5 1 Los Angeles, California 90066. 2 BY MS. MASLEY 3 Q Ms. James, are you a student today? 4 A Yes, I am, a student. 5 Q And where are you a student? 6 A I am a student at the University of California School of 7 Law, Los Angeles, UCLA School of Law. 8 Q Okay. What year are you? 9 A I'm a second year. 10 Q Did you obtain a BA before going onto law school? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q And where did you obtain your BA? 13 A At Stanford University. 14 Q What was your major there? 15 A Public policy. 16 Q Did you perform well there? 17 A Yes, I graduated with honors, so I believe so. 18 Q Were you admitted to the UCLA Law School after the 19 elimination of affirmative action? 20 A Yes, I was. 21 Q How many years after that elimination were you entered? 22 A I believe three years. I entered in 1999. I believe it 23 was three years after. 24 Q So were you the second class that entered? 25 A I was the third class that entered. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 6 1 Q Without affirmative action? 2 A Without affirmative action. 3 Q Was your decision to attend the UCLA Law School somehow 4 affected by the elimination of affirmative action in 5 California? 6 A Yes, it was. 7 Q How so? 8 A Well, having been at Stanford I knew what was going on, 9 and at Boalt. And I had seen an article that the Santa Fe 10 Mercury Newspaper had done, like a weekend spread, on Eric 11 Brooks and so I knew what he was going through as the only 12 black student in his class. And that affected my decision about 13 going to a UC school period. 14 There was an UCLA recruiter that came to Stanford at 15 the time I was thinking about applying. I was working on my 16 personal statement, and he came and did a little seminar with 17 our pre-law advisor and I attended that. Listened to all that 18 he had to say. And stayed after the seminar or the little 19 meeting was over, and spoke to him about my concerns about 20 what was going on at Boalt, and that was my concern about 21 UCLA, too. And I did not want to go to a school where I was 22 going to end up in that situation. And he assured me that 23 that's not what is going on at UCLA, that they were not having 24 the problems that Boalt was having, that the faculty, the 25 administration were very committed to keeping minority BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 7 1 applicant numbers up, and, you know, I go ahead and apply. He 2 gave me some tips about my personal statement. 3 And so, although I was concerned, I felt reassured 4 by this recruiter that, you know, I wasn't going into that 5 situation. But it turned out differently, of course. 6 Q So Eric Brooks was the only black student entering Boalt 7 his year; is that correct? 8 A I believe so. I know he was the only student who was 9 there at the time that that article was written. So I believe 10 yeah, I believe he was the only one who entered that year. 11 Q And you didn't want to be in that position at UCLA Law? 12 A No, I did not. 13 Q Did you apply to Boalt? 14 A I did apply to Boalt. 15 Q Why? 16 A Because my mother wanted me to apply to Boalt. I did not 17 want to attend Boalt. But my mother has been my greatest 18 supporter throughout my education. And I knew that if I didn't 19 apply, that there would always be this question. And I have -- 20 there's actually more to it. 21 It actually starts with undergrad because she wanted 22 me to go to Berkeley. I was accepted at Berkeley, too, and I 23 chose Stanford over Berkeley. And that was sort of against my 24 mother's wishes. So I applied to Boalt for my mother. And I 25 was wait listed which I felt was the best situation that I BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 8 1 could be in because, you know, it wasn't like I actually got 2 turned down, but I didn't have to actually have to go. But I 3 didn't have to look my mom in the eye and say, I'm not going. 4 I could say, oh, you know, I was wait listed, so I could 5 probably, you know, look for something else and let's go to 6 UCLA. So, yeah. 7 Q So you did not think you would suffer the fate of Eric 8 Brooks at UCLA. 9 A No, I wouldn't have gone. 10 Q How many black students ended up enrolling in your 11 entering class? 12 A Two. One other person other than myself. 13 Q When you saw that what did you realize about the 14 situation you were in? 15 A I realized I was in the same situation that Eric Brooks 16 was in. And I was -- I was shocked. And the first day or 17 orientation, when I looked around at my classmates -- and, you 18 know, we all gathered outside in the courtyard, and then we go 19 into this auditorium so that our Dean can speak to us. And 20 when I looked around the room, and there was one other face 21 that looked like mine. And this group of approximately three 22 hundred students, I could only find one face that looked like 23 mine. 24 And, actually, I've been told that there were three 25 African-Americans. And I was searching that crowd for the BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 9 1 third one because I already knew what the second one looked 2 like. And I searching that crowd, you know, are you the third 3 one, you know, desperately seeking that third one. But -- 4 well, I later found out who the third one was. 5 Q Is there anything you want to say about the third person? 6 A Well, what I'd like to say because when you asked me the 7 question how many enrolled and I said two. The third person 8 doesn't identify it as being African-American. So when he was 9 approached by African-Americans, he claimed to be Creole. And 10 when he was approached by non African-Americans, he claimed to 11 be Caucasian. 12 So my understanding is that -- because his parents 13 have come to the campus, that his mother is white, and his 14 father is -- at least mix. So his father had African decent 15 in him. But he did not identify as being African-American, and 16 he did not associate with African-Americans. And after the 17 first year, he transferred out of UCLA. So there are two in my 18 class now. 19 Q Have you always been a top student in your life? 20 A I believe so, yes. Straight A, honor roll, yes. 21 Q When you began your classes at UCLA Law, was there any 22 overt hostility on the part of white students to your presence 23 at the school? 24 A When you say "began" do you mean first week, or -- okay. 25 In the beginning it wasn't overt. It was more like I was BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 10 1 invisible. I mean, you know -- the first few weeks, I was like 2 any other law student, you know, wandering around the hallways, 3 dragging this big book bag, carrying these big legal books, 4 scared of the Socratic method, trying to find my way to class. 5 And so it wasn't that I would say overt, you know, racism or -- 6 it was about invisible. I was just a non factor. In my 7 classroom, you know, I just sat, sort of a non factor. 8 Q Did you notice that when you or other minorities or women 9 spoke in the class that there were certain responses on the 10 part of other classmates? 11 A Yes. In my civil procedure class -- I had a group of 12 students that sat a row behind me, and who -- anytime a woman 13 or any time a person of color would make a comment, you know, 14 would try to answer a question, because this was the Socratic 15 method, this was our series Socratic method. So everybody was 16 nervous in that class. And our professor was very quick which 17 made me -- probably is why I'm responding the way, the 18 professor -- but, you know, part of what he was training us to 19 do was to speak. And -- people were nervous. 20 But anytime a minority spoke, anytime a woman spoke 21 there's this line of students sitting behind me who are 22 snickering, who are making comments, oh, that's smart, oh, 23 look at her. Later on in the semester because that was the 24 first semester, first year, and when some of the protesting 25 started happening, and there were people coming into our BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 11 1 classroom to announce that there were going to be meetings, 2 that there were going rallies that day. And somebody came in 3 wearing the Affirmative Action T-shirt, and stood up to make 4 an announcement. And these people in the back, you know, I 5 could hear them saying, you know, "F" affirmative action. 6 Just very negative comments. And it was me and a couple of my 7 classmates who were there, all people of color sitting. 8 And we went and spoke to our professor about the 9 fact that this was going on. And our professor made a general 10 announcement to the class, not specific to, you know, 11 inappropriate comments, but more so that you just shouldn't be 12 speaking while your other classmates are speaking, just out of 13 courtesy. So, it was just -- you know, I don't know whether 14 those students got the message that it was, you know, in 15 response to their comments. It was more, he was just making a 16 general announcement to everybody that I don't want you 17 talking while your classmates are talking. So -- it 18 continued. 19 Q The snickering on the part and the comments of those 20 students, what affect did that have on our learning in the 21 classroom? 22 A It added to the fact that I didn't want to raise my hand. 23 I didn't want to speak up. I felt very silenced in that 24 classroom, and it was part of the reason that I felt silenced. 25 Obviously, if you're sitting in front of a group of students BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 12 1 that are, you know, they feel empowered because there's so many 2 of them to make whatever comments they want to make. And you 3 feel like you're just sitting there by yourself and, you know, 4 you don't want to speak up when you hear them laughing, and 5 snickering, and saying derogatory things, you don't want to 6 speak up. And we're talking about a subject that's not even 7 that controversial. Civil Procedure, it's not that 8 controversial. 9 So that's my first semester, first year, that's the 10 experience that I'm getting. And, you know, don't speak up in 11 class, don't raise your hand. Because I was the sort of 12 person, you know, I was pretty confident out. You know, I'd 13 raise my hand if I thought I knew something. I wasn't that 14 embarrassed to be wrong. I've been wrong before in my life. 15 But, you know, I'm not going to risk, you know, being 16 ridiculed and laughed at, you know -- so, yeah, I stopped 17 raising my hand. 18 Q Were there other things inhibiting you from raising your 19 hand? 20 A There were. And in that class and other classes, I 21 started to see a pattern starting to happen in the classroom 22 with the professors as they would call one student and -- for 23 example, in my torts class, I was the only black in that class 24 because the other black student was in a different section from 25 me. We were in the same large section, but different small BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 13 1 section. I was the only student in that semester who never got 2 called on to give a full case reading. 3 If I raised my hand in that class, I would get 4 called on. But I was the only student that never was actually 5 on call that day. And we weren't assigned ahead of time. 6 This -- the professor just picked a student who was on call 7 that day, so to speak, for that day's reading. I was the only 8 student in that section of maybe about thirty-five people, a 9 small enough section that it was obvious that, you know, I've 10 never been called on. 11 In my Civil Procedure class, initially I was raising 12 my hand. I felt like when I raised my hand I was asked 13 questions about the facts. And if I didn't -- I was asked 14 questions about the facts. If we went into any type of 15 analogy, or any type of reasoning at all, and I wasn't just 16 right there with the professor, he would go to another 17 student, and then ask that student to explain what I was 18 saying. Where with other students, if they didn't have -- if 19 they didn't answer the way he thought they should answer 20 initially, they were always afforded the opportunity to come 21 back and say, oh -- you know, after he would say something, 22 and they were offered the opportunity to come back and say, 23 oh, well, I think da, da, da, and explain why, you know -- or 24 add to their original answer. 25 Also in that class, this was a professor who was up BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 14 1 for tenure. And so towards the middle, at the end of the 2 semester, he had, you know, professors coming and evaluating, 3 he was being taped. And I also noticed that days when 4 professors came in to evaluate him, he chose teams. He chose 5 who was going to be call that morning because he would come 6 in, stand at the podium, look at his seating chart, and, you 7 know, indicate -- give some sort of indication that he was 8 deciding who was going to be on call. 9 Well, on days when he was being evaluated, only 10 white males were on call that day. So, you know, once I 11 started seeing this, I realized, you know, this is not a good 12 environment. This is -- I had the feeling that this professor 13 doesn't believe that I have the ability to compete with my 14 classmates. 15 And I went to him, and I said, you know, I'm having 16 a problem in your classroom. I feel that I'm losing my 17 confidence. You know, I feel I don't want to raise my hand 18 any more. And his advice to me was -- I thought it was 19 advice, you know, the first year -- first semester law school 20 student was -- well, you don't need to raise your hand in 21 class. All you need to worry about is doing well on the final 22 exam. So I thought, okay, you know, okay, fine. Okay, I 23 won't raise my hand. 24 And it wasn't until maybe -- maybe over the summer, 25 in the beginning of this second year, that I realized how BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 15 1 wrong and dangerous and damaging that that advice was. And 2 this was a person, you know, I know he was sympathetic to the 3 fact that, you know, there's no minorities sitting in this 4 class basically. But he didn't even realize that there's a 5 strong correlation between me being able to participate and 6 engage that information in class and me doing well in the 7 final at the end. You know, he saw it as two separate things. 8 But if you're not sitting in that classroom, and you're not 9 thinking and engaging in that information -- I mean, of 10 course, you know as a lawyer, it's not -- law is not something 11 you just jump in the night before the exam and try to memorize 12 that information. You need to be working with it the whole 13 semester. And so I didn't realize that until it was too late. 14 But, you know -- 15 Q Did it affect your performance on your exam? 16 A Well, yes, it did. I got my worse grade for a semester 17 in his class. 18 Q And are exams the only grades for the course? 19 A Yes. 20 Q At some point in your semester exam, did you decide that 21 you were going to drop out of UCLA Law School? 22 A Yes, after -- first semester we have three exams. And 23 after my first two exams and I decided I was going to drop out, 24 and I made the mistake of telling Lena, the other student, 25 before our third exam, and she was really upset. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 16 1 Q The other black student. 2 A The other black student. And I didn't -- it never 3 dawned on me, making a statement about my life could affect her 4 life so much. And I was just -- I already felt bad that I was 5 dropping out. I mean, you know, I had to tell my family. But 6 when she called me and she was crying, and she was so upset. 7 And she told me that after I told her that, that she didn't 8 realize having me there meant so much to her, that it was just 9 -- just having a person there meant so much to her. 10 So she ended up calling the Dean, the Deans 11 Admissions at the school, and telling the Dean that I was 12 going to drop out. And this was during finals, and I was at 13 home. And she told the Dean, if Crystal drops, I'm going, 14 too. So they're going to lose their whole African-American 15 class, which was only two, but they were going to lose 16 everything. 17 So I got a call from the Dean, you know, and she 18 talked to me. And I told her about the problems that I was 19 having in class. I told her about the students that were 20 making comments in the classroom. And, you know, she 21 convinced me that, you know, to wait, go home over Christmas 22 break and to decide, to just wait to decide. So I said okay. 23 So we took our last exam, you know. It was bad. I 24 felt so guilty for having told Lena this before her last exam 25 because she was so upset and she doesn't need that extra BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 17 1 burden, nor did I it, but she did not need that extra burden 2 going into that exam, worrying about whether she's going to be 3 the only black student coming back after Christmas break. 4 So I went home, and I talked to my mom, and I talked 5 to Lena, and I really felt like I had to come back for her 6 just as much as for me because this is a single mother with 7 two children, and how could I make a decision that could 8 effect her, you know, so adversely that she drops out of law 9 school? I mean, it was a burden. I couldn't believe that I 10 was making -- I was going to make a decision that I had to 11 decide on someone else's life, that was going to impact 12 someone else's life. It's not my family member, not my loved 13 one, but, you know, just another student there trying to make 14 it. 15 Q In the class where the snickering and the comments was 16 going in one of those classes, did you know the other people 17 well that were being talked about and laughed at? 18 A Yeah, I knew the people that were sitting right beside 19 me, yes. Well, there were three students sitting beside me. 20 And I knew the one that was closest to me well. I knew the 21 person who was on the other side of her fairly well. And the 22 person who was sitting next to me, we were in a study group 23 together. And the person sitting next to her, attended our 24 study groups a little bit during the first semester. And then 25 I didn't know the other two people very well. It was the BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 18 1 beginning of the first semester. So we were on -- like, we 2 would say hi. We knew each other's names, but weren't in a 3 study group together. 4 Q Did the students who were making these comments know 5 anything about those people you're talking about? 6 A Not that I'm aware of. I mean, I never saw them 7 associate with each other. I wouldn't think that they 8 associated with each other. So I don't know how they could 9 know anything more than just the fact that they are first-year 10 law students. They might have known what undergraduate school 11 they came from because that starts like -- kind of the first 12 thing you ask each other, you know, what was your undergrad, 13 what was your major. But more than that, other than, you know, 14 what they look like, or -- no, I don't think so. 15 Q You took Constitutional Law first year? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What do you remember most about that class? 18 A I remember being upset in that class almost every single 19 day. I remember being in that classroom, and feeling such waves 20 of emotions over some of the classroom comments that were 21 happening that I could not follow lecture for ten or fifteen 22 minutes. I remember my legs going under the table 23 uncontrollably. I remember students feeling free enough that 24 when anything was mentioned about color, to turn in their seat 25 and stare me, and I sat in the front row. I had students sit BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 19 1 there and turn to me, and stare at me, to wait for my reaction. 2 I remember Lena getting up and leaving the classroom, running 3 out crying, running out of the school crying not knowing 4 whether she's okay. And -- that was totally my worst class. 5 That was my worst class. 6 I remember lots of racist comments being made. I 7 remember going to speak to the professor in anticipation of 8 problems that I knew was going to happen in the classroom. 9 I don't know if you want me to be more specific. 10 Well, we had problems -- the first problem I 11 remember was with the Korematsu case where, you know, we 12 talked about the case and we covered it in two parts. So, it 13 came before the Brown case, the Plessy case. And the first 14 comment that I remember feeling a little bit uneasy about was 15 a student who said -- who felt like it was okay to round up -- 16 it was okay for the United States to have rounded up all the 17 Japanese at that time and intern them because you really 18 couldn't tell who was loyal and who wasn't loyal. So this 19 person was basically making the military's argument in that 20 case, that since you couldn't tell who was loyal and who 21 wasn't, you would just to have to round them all up and intern 22 them. Of course, people are disturbed over that comment. And 23 another classmate, you know, answers back and says, well, I 24 really don't understand your reasoning there, are you 25 suggesting that if the United States went to war with Great BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 20 1 Britain that it would be okay, and that the United States 2 would round up all people of British descent and put them in a 3 internment camp. So the student stopped for a few moments and 4 he, goes, well, yeah. 5 And the significance for me over that exchange was 6 the fact that my professor stayed out of it. And here this 7 person was saying something which I think a lot of us in that 8 classroom felt was, you know, was wrong and maybe insensitive 9 to some extent. But what I got out of it was, that we're not 10 going to have an intellectual discussion about these issues, 11 you know. This person felt comfortable to just blurt out what 12 they said. Yet another student tries to respond, but this 13 person -- once that person responded, this was like, yeah, you 14 know, not even trying to engage in an intellectual discussion. 15 And my professor was not mediating this. He was not 16 encouraging this to -- you know, okay, well, let's have an 17 intellectual discussion about why you feel this way, or let's 18 talk about the law. It was just kind of, okay, we need to 19 move on to the next topic because this is getting a little 20 controversial here. 21 So it was after that comment was made that I went to 22 his office hours and I said, you know, I had seen the 23 syllabus, I knew what was coming up. In fact, we had actually 24 read Brown before. We started reading the assignment before 25 we actually got to class. But we weren't covering the actual BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 21 1 decision in Brown yet we were reading it for something else. 2 But I went to his office hours and I said, you know, this 3 comment really disturbs me. I know we got Brown coming up. I 4 know he was doing Prop 209. He had additional readings 5 assigned for that. So I knew that there was affirmative 6 action coming. And I talked to him about the fact, you know, 7 it's going to be difficult and I'm already feeling 8 uncomfortable in this environment, and you're the professor, 9 you control this classroom. I see you as the mediator and I'm 10 expecting you to control this classroom, and to mediate these 11 discussions. I don't want to censure anybody. I don't want 12 anybody to feel like they're censored in that classroom. You, 13 as the professor, have to mediate this so that we're having, 14 you know, intellectual discussions. And I told him, I said, I 15 feel like one of your responsibilities as a professor here is 16 to teach us as lawyers. We're going to have different 17 opinions. And one of your responsibilities is, is to teach us 18 how to do that in a way where we're not backing each other up 19 in a corner, and just responding for various dispersive 20 stances. Teach us how to talk to each other about 21 controversial things because these are skills we need also.3. 22 Q What happened when you did Brown versus the Board of 23 Education? 24 A What happened -- 25 THE COURT: What was the professor's response to BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 22 1 you? 2 THE WITNESS: He agreed. And he came back to class 3 the next day or the next time we had class, and he made an 4 announcement that, you know, we're getting ready to move into 5 very controversial, very sensitive material, and I want you 6 guys to be sensitive to people in this classroom who are going 7 to have different opinions. 8 THE COURT: But he didn't disagree. He agreed that 9 was part of his role -- 10 THE WITNESS: He did agree. I don't think he agreed 11 as strongly as I did. But I was coming at it from, you know, 12 I pay tuition here, and I pay your salary, and to some extent, 13 you're here to teach me. This is what I'm here paying for. 14 So I don't know if he agreed as strongly, but, yeah, he didn't 15 disagree. 16 THE COURT: Go on. 17 BY MS. MASLEY: 18 Q I'm sorry, what happened when you read Brown? 19 A It was really, really difficult. Actually, we kind of 20 did a group of cases together. We did the Plessy case at the 21 same time. So there were comments made like about Plessy -- 22 there was a woman sitting right next to me, why did he just 23 pass? You know, why would he admit to being black if he looked 24 as though he was not black. And he wanted to ride in the car, 25 why didn't he just pass? BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 23 1 And I wasn't quite upset about that comment as Lena 2 was. That was the day she went running out of the class, 3 crying, running out of school, crying. 4 I don't whether it was because this woman was 5 sitting next to me, and I didn't want to react because I know 6 all eyes on me, and we weren't in the same row. Whenever 7 stuff like this comes up -- I'm sorry -- for Brown -- the 8 discussion of Brown went okay. We focused a lot on the 9 criticism of the decision. And the criticism specifically on 10 the Brown court -- the court using the psychological report in 11 their decision. We focused a lot on that. One of the 12 students who made a comment and basically just said, well, the 13 Brown decision was wrong and it just should have never 14 happened. 15 And that really bothered me because at the moment 16 that they said that, I don't know whether they had the 17 realization that if that decision had not happened, I wouldn't 18 be allowed to sit in that classroom with him, right then and 19 there. And I guess -- it was just amazing to me that he could 20 callously throw out his comment that meant me having to be out 21 of that classroom. It was -- you know, I just had this vision 22 of, like, I'm just not here, I'm just not here. I mean, I 23 don't know whether he considered it and he didn't care, or 24 what. But it was just -- well, Brown should have just never 25 happened. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 24 1 And I think probably he was saying it not because he 2 doesn't want blacks and whites to be in the same classroom, 3 but because he -- it just didn't even dawn on him, really, 4 what the significance of it was which would be blacks and 5 whites wouldn't be in the same classroom. And that really, 6 really bothered me. So I was really upset. 7 And what happens to you, you're sitting there, what 8 happens to me, my heart starts beating, and I feel this 9 pressure, you know, I feel like I need to respond to that, I 10 need to respond to that. But -- blood starts going, your 11 heart starts pumping. And you don't want to respond from an 12 emotional point -- a perspective because already you're 13 perceived as not being able to be rational, that you just come 14 from an emotional perspective. And so, you know -- especially 15 when you're only being called on to state the facts, and 16 you're not being called on to show that you can actually read, 17 and you can actually analyze. So you have this -- you feel 18 this burden of I need to react, I need to react, but I don't 19 want sound emotional because if I sound emotional they're not 20 going to listen to what I'm saying, they're just going to hear 21 me and go, oh, yeah, that's just exactly what we thought. And 22 so you don't say anything because you're not there yet, you're 23 not -- you know, you're so emotional. 24 And I remember talking to Lena and she's feeling 25 exactly the same way. And she starts telling me, write, BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 25 1 you've got it wright. And I brought my laptop, and I actually 2 took notes on my laptop. Of course, I get so nervous and I'm 3 not that great of typist anyways, but I would get so nervous I 4 couldn't type. So I started bringing paper and pen so that I 5 could just write, write, write, write, just to control the 6 energy and try to come back down. But, you know, for that ten 7 or fifteen minutes I didn't know what was going on in the 8 classroom. I didn't hear my professor. I didn't hear the 9 students. All I heard was my own heart beating; my own head 10 throbbing; my own inner-critical saying, why aren't you saying 11 something, why aren't you addressing this, why aren't you 12 saying something? And then I would leave that classroom, and 13 I would feel such shame and such guilt from not addressing 14 those comments. And Lena would feel the same way. And I 15 would feel I let her down, you know. You know, if she's 16 upset, I need to stay calm. And we felt -- we felt, okay, one 17 of us has to be able to say something, we can't both just be 18 sitting there upset. And so we started to work on it, you 19 know. We started to take turns so that one of us wouldn't 20 feel the burden all the time to speak up. 21 But I felt like -- and there was actually a time in 22 that class when my professor asked what do you think 23 the African-American prospective would be. And a white person 24 answered. I mean, two of us are sitting in that classroom, and 25 he has to ask a white person what do you think the BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 26 1 African-Americans prospective would be on this? 2 So, yeah, I felt pretty much out of control most of 3 the time in that class. 4 Q Did white students complain about your presence in those 5 classes? 6 A When I went to my professor and talked to him about, you 7 know, how I was feeling, he told me that other students had 8 come to him and felt like they couldn't be as candid as they 9 wanted to be in class because Lena and I were in that class. 10 And I was just -- I was stunned that -- because of the comments 11 that were already made, I was, like, how much candid do they 12 want to be? I mean, they're already saying things that are, to 13 me, just, you know, very racist. I mean, I didn't know what 14 they wanted to say. But he told me that. And that's when I 15 said to him, well, I don't want anybody to feel censored in 16 that class, but this is a law school, Constitutional Law class, 17 and we should be having an intellectual discussion here, not 18 just having people shout out whatever little racist thing comes 19 off the tip of their tongue, you know, at the top of their 20 head. 21 So, yeah, I guess -- you know, I only heard it from 22 him, but I guess there were students that felt uncomfortable 23 that they couldn't say what they wanted to say because Lena 24 and I were sitting in the classroom. 25 Q Just because you were there. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 27 1 A I'm assuming so -- and, well, because we're black. 2 Q Did you have similar experiences in your criminal law 3 class? 4 A I did. The main thing -- well, criminal law, I had that 5 first semester, too. And that was again another class where I 6 realized and my friends realized that we were not ever going to 7 talk about some of the social implications of these cases, and 8 even some of the social prospectives that the justices had in 9 making these decisions. 10 But mainly I had a problem when we got to the 11 Bernard Getz case. And we covered the case in class, and the 12 professor -- and he didn't do this very often in class, 13 decided to make a handout of hypotheticals. So we had this 14 sheet that we received, and it was four or five different 15 hypotheticals. And each hypothetical was a version of a white 16 woman standing at an ATM, withdrawing money, a black man -- it 17 was at night, and a black man coming up to her to ask for 18 directions. And I remember it was the last hypothetical -- 19 there were different versions of it. Some, she knew he was 20 going to ask for directions; some she didn't; some he was just 21 this way; some he wasn't. But the last hypothetical was 22 basically that he started to ask her for directions. And she 23 turns around and shoots him with a gun, kills him. And the 24 question, you know, is this legal? You know, is she 25 experiencing extreme emotional distress? I mean under New BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 28 1 York law is this legal? And someone answered, yes. And -- so 2 we get this handout. We don't really discuss it. We just 3 kind of go through the answers, and we leave class that day. 4 I mean we were in just -- I mean, oh, my God, what do you 5 mean, what do you mean this is -- and so we get back to class 6 the next day, we're on a different subject. It's like it 7 never happened. 8 And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, this didn't 9 need to be this way. I mean, didn't this professor, he's been 10 teaching criminal law for years, didn't this professor for a 11 moment think about the fact that he was giving us 12 hypotheticals of a black man getting shot for just stopping 13 and asking directions? Didn't he think about the fact that 14 he's using a hypothetical, a white man who felt threatened by 15 four black youths. This man decided to use a hypothetical 16 about a white woman standing at an ATM who kills a black man 17 without knowing the reason why which for me -- and I can't 18 believe that not for most people -- it brought up the imagery 19 of, you know, back in the deep south where a white woman could 20 just claim anything, and a black man is going to get lynched 21 without even getting a trial. It didn't occur to him that 22 he's invoking the same imagery, and we never discuss it? It's 23 just a handout like, you know, take it home, and then we move 24 on to a new subject the next day. And he's got the only two 25 black students in the class, in his criminal law class, and BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 29 1 that's what he chooses to do. 2 Q This pressure from racism in your classes, did it change 3 your self-image and your relationship to your law school work? 4 A Oh, yes. I mean -- you know, I enjoyed school. I was a 5 good student. I was confident until I got there. And I 6 started thinking, you know, there's something wrong here, 7 there's something wrong. And as I was -- you know, as I was 8 losing my confidence to speak up in class, as I was seeing that 9 my professors had no confidence in me -- I mean, that's what I 10 was assuming by the fact, you know, if they're not calling on 11 me, or they're only calling on me to answer one small little 12 detail, and then, you know, other people would be on call all 13 day in class. 14 I started to lose my confidence about even becoming 15 an attorney, about my capabilities to become an attorney, 16 about my desire to become an attorney. And by second 17 semester, I -- you know, I just said I can't control this, and 18 I started looking to other areas of my life that I could 19 control, and my focus just shifted. So I was there. I was 20 showing up for class every day. But I wasn't -- you know, I 21 wasn't really engaging in it. I was -- I felt like I was 22 spending more time on it, but not with any of the confidence 23 or the optimism that I started law school with, you know. It 24 was more than -- I mean, I had to really force myself to want 25 to do the reading. Forced every day I got up. And -- it's BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 30 1 still like that. Every day I have to convince myself to go to 2 school, and I used to love school. Because when I started at 3 UCLA, I wanted to do the joint degree program. I knew at some 4 point, you know, given how I was going to have to work as a 5 lawyer afterwards, but I wanted to go back and do a Ph.D. in 6 my public policy. And once I got there, I was just so glad I 7 hadn't applied to the business school. It was, you know, I 8 just want out of school, period. I had no motivation or 9 desire for academics. I mean, I love reading. I love 10 arguing. I love writing. I was a great writer before I got 11 to UCLA. I used to have my professors ask to keep my papers 12 as examples for other students in class. I spent my last 13 quarter at Stanford working on my honors thesis, and I loved 14 it. And then all of a sudden, I can't write a paragraph, I 15 can't write a sentence? So it was very discouraging. 16 Q And who was telling you or treating you like you could 17 not write a paragraph or a sentence? 18 A My lawyering skills professor. I mean, you know, a 19 paragraph, nothing good in a paragraph. It was just amazing to 20 me. I know writing from a legal standpoint is different, but 21 it's not that different that you can't even get a paragraph 22 correct. 23 Q Were you ever in classes where professors would go down 24 the row and call on people? 25 A Frequently. In my large section that's -- you know, BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 31 1 sometimes they way the did it. Not in the class where the 2 professor had a seating chart, but in other classes which was 3 more a softer Socratic method. Yeah, they would start calling 4 -- you could see a pattern where they're call on a row until 5 they get right up to me and then they jump to the row behind 6 me, or they jump to the row in front of me, or they jump to the 7 row on this side of the room. And I don't know what their 8 motivation was for that. I don't know whether they felt like 9 I'm not going to call you because I don't want to embarrass 10 you. And I don't know whether they realized that the fact that 11 they didn't call on me, you know, that's what embarrassed me 12 because it was very obvious that they were not calling on me. 13 And so the perception is that they're not calling on me because 14 I couldn't possibly know the answer. And that was a stigma. 15 That was embarrassing. 16 Q What was at stake for you each time you were sitting in 17 those classes and taking those exams? 18 A My emotional and physical well-being was at stake. I 19 mean, if you really want to get down to it, that's what it was. 20 I mean, I was emotionally a wreck, and that's the basic of what 21 was at stake. 22 Next level was at stake, my learning, my GPA, my 23 opportunity. I think most people realized that, you know, 24 your first-year law grades are very important in terms of you 25 being eligible for employment, your summer job, you know, BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 32 1 externship, all of that. All of that was at stake. Every time 2 I got emotional in that class for -- I felt silence in that 3 class and I didn't engage that material, you know, that was 4 effecting how I was going to do on the final exam. How I do 5 on the final exam effects what I put on my resume. It effects 6 my GPA. It effects what I put on a resume. It effects 7 whether I can and I have not been able to participate in any 8 of the on-camp interview programs which our program is -- 9 because I don't have the minimum GPA that these firms want. 10 So -- and then, who knows? I don't know how it's even going 11 to effect me. 12 Now -- the battle that I'm fighting now, is that our 13 school has this idea and I don't know whether it's good or 14 not, but that your first-year grades are going to determine 15 whether you pass the bar. And so I'm finding out now, people 16 telling me I'm not going to pass the bar. So maybe all of this 17 is for nothing. Maybe I'm not going to be an attorney. 18 So what's at stake, everything's at stake. Every 19 person who's invested in me up until this point, their 20 expectations are at stake, their feelings are at stake. My 21 future is at stake. 22 Q How would you compare and contrast your experience at 23 UCLA Law after the elimination of affirmative action and your 24 experience at Stanford? 25 A It's like night and day. It's like night and day. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 33 1 Stanford had affirmative action, and not for one minute that I 2 was at Stanford, not for one minute ever, did I feel -- you 3 know, I attended classes. I was selected into a program to 4 spend a quarter in Washington, D.C. I did an internship at the 5 Department of Commerce. I attended lots of events there that 6 the Stanford and Washington campus had going on. Lots of 7 interactions with different people, with dignitaries. Not for 8 one minute did I ever feel like a student, a Stanford student, 9 a Stanford faculty member, a Stanford administrator thought 10 that I was there because of affirmative action. I came to UCLA 11 Law School after the end of affirmative action, and I have 12 gotten that feeling the students sitting in my classroom, from 13 my professors, from the administrators. I actually had an 14 alumni ask me, how do I think I got in to UCLA Law School? And 15 there is no affirmative action, yet I get treated like I'm 16 there because of affirmative action all of the time. 17 Q When you were being treated and judged in these ways, did 18 you feel like it was just you who was being treated and judged? 19 A No, no. I -- I mean, because I had Lena. And we were 20 going through it together. There were other people of color 21 that were going through it also. But I think Lena and I were 22 spotlighted because there were just the two of us. So we sort 23 of were just highlighted more than the other students. But 24 Latino students are going through the same thing. There was 25 only one Native American in my class, you know. So, they're BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 34 1 going through it, too. So I knew it wasn't just me. It's just 2 that the whole, you know, black and white, it's more extreme 3 with African-Americans than it is. And we were just two. 4 Q You said that many times you found yourself silent, not 5 saying anything, wishing you would speak -- 6 A Yes. 7 Q Each time you were silent, what toll did that have on 8 you? 9 A A real emotional toll, a real -- you just -- you lose a 10 piece of yourself. You lose self-confidence. You lose your 11 power. Each time I didn't raise my hand when I knew the 12 answer, each time that I didn't respond to a comment that I 13 knew was wrong, I felt a little piece of me leaving. I felt a 14 little bit of who I was dying off. You know, I was -- I think 15 I was tremendous person before I got to law school. I had been 16 through a lot. I had accomplished a lot. And I felt like this 17 defeated person who had no power, who had no voice. It took 18 thirty-four years for me to accomplish everything in less than 19 a year I felt like I was just powerless, like I had nothing. 20 And I didn't even know -- you know, my mom, she can't 21 understand this. She can't understand why I just can't draw on 22 the strength of everything that I've done before that. She 23 can't understand how sitting in that classroom, day-after-day, 24 and feeling parts of you dying and feeling, you know, 25 dis-empowered, that that's all you can focus on while you're BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 35 1 there. You don't -- you can't just go, oh, well, but yeah, but 2 I used to run my own business, but yeah, I used to be able to 3 do this, yeah, I used to be able to do that. You just sit there 4 and you just feel like I don't have any power, I don't have any 5 strength, I'm weak. You know, that's how you start to feel. 6 You're losing that. It starts to take a physical toll. You 7 can't sleep. You're stressed all the time. So it has a lot of 8 costs. 9 Q Well, you're a tremendous person now. 10 A Thank you. 11 Q How did you finish the year academically? 12 A First year, I did marginally better than I did first 13 semester. And part of the reason for that -- I don't know if 14 you want me to go into the reason why. Part of the reason why 15 was because after your first semester grades which I did not do 16 well, the school has an academic support system. And the way 17 that that works is they have a professor who teaches a class in 18 a sort of a supportive environment. Meaning, you have a study 19 group, and you go to that study group, and you do weekly 20 assignments. And for our first year it was going to be -- 21 property was the class. So when -- you're eligible -- I didn't 22 have to go into in, my grades aren't bad enough -- well, first 23 year I don't know if -- I don't think anyone has to go into it. 24 I think it's optional. But, you know, that class is there, and 25 it's to help you. And I remember, you know, Lena and I talking BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 36 1 about it because we're both eligible to go into it. And we 2 talked about the fact that we didn't want both of us to be in 3 it, what would that look like if both of us went into that 4 class, because that class has a stigma. It's the "remedial" 5 class. It's the class of "dummies" who can't make it in law 6 school. So we didn't want the whole African-American class to 7 be in there. 8 And so, I didn't really care for the professor all 9 that much. She had been at the summer program, and -- it's 10 not that I didn't like her personally, I just kind of had some 11 trouble with her style of teaching because her style of 12 teaching is kind of like a kindergarten teacher. We have 13 blue, we have yellow, and I guess that's what they think 14 academic support is all about. So I said, well, I'll stay in 15 the regular property class because we would have had that 16 class together. It was a big section class. So she went into 17 the academic support class, and I stayed out. And I can tell 18 you she did a lot better than I did second semester. So I did 19 not finish the year very strongly, but I did marginally better 20 than first semester. 21 Q Was that what your performance should have been? 22 A No, no. I mean -- I knew the material. I understood the 23 material. Even if I wasn't raising my hand in class, you know, 24 I knew whether I understood what was going on or not when I was 25 able to tune in. I knew I should have done better. I was not BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 37 1 -- it wasn't that I got the exam and I didn't understand what 2 the professor was asking. It's not that I didn't understand 3 what a law school answer took. It's not that I didn't 4 understand that IRAK was. I should have done better, and I 5 could have done better. 6 Q What was it that held you back? 7 A My lack of confidence. My state of mind when I sitting 8 down taking that exam. And my state of mind throughout the 9 semester. I mean, I will have to say that not working with 10 that material, you know, it does impact how you're going to do 11 on the exam. You're not practicing talking about it. You're 12 not practicing formulating the arguments, you know. That 13 effects -- it effects your pace, if nothing else, because you 14 have to stop and do all that during the exam. 15 Q And was it the accumulation of these racist incidents and 16 the atmosphere in the law school that snapped your confidence 17 from you? 18 A Yes. It's like taking a battering every day. And it's 19 still -- I mean, it's not just the horrors of first year 20 because very first-year student has horrors. It's a horrible 21 thing for a year. But, you know, it's even more horrible when 22 you're only one of two, or you're only one, and you're sitting 23 there with these extra burdens on you, on top of just the 24 horrors of being a first-year student. And although the 25 horrors of being a first-year student are over for me, the BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 38 1 other aspects of being at UCLA after the end of affirmative 2 action are still there. I still carry them every day, and I 3 still take a battering over them every day. 4 Q Have you at some point recently taken an academic support 5 class? 6 A Yes, after I -- after I did only marginally better, I 7 went home, and, you know, I was still optimist because I had 8 done a little better, and I was still optimist that, hey, I can 9 turn this around. And at some point, I don't remember exactly 10 what day it was, but in the month of July I received a letter 11 from the Dean stating that I was on academic counselling, and 12 that I would have to have every class that I wanted to take for 13 second year approved by the Dean. And that I needed to take -- 14 initially reading the letter, I thought I had to take both 15 classes. There are two academic support classes for second 16 year:community property and wills and trusts, and I thought I 17 had to take both so I ended up signing up for both. So, yes, I 18 was in two academic support classes my first semester of second 19 year. 20 Q And have you felt you've been treated fairly and equally 21 in that context? 22 A In one of the classes I believe I was, in the wills and 23 trusts class which is taught by the professor who taught the 24 first-year property class. So I ended up being in her class 25 anyway even though, you know, I chose not to go in first year. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 39 1 My other class, community property, I thought 2 throughout the semester that I was being treated equally. I 3 thought I was doing well in that class. I enjoyed the 4 subject. I understood it. I was tutoring other students in 5 that subject. I was attending the weekly study groups which 6 included doing presentations to the other class. I always had 7 great compliments from my professor on the presentations. 8 Up until a week before finals, and part of what this 9 program does is at the end you start taking practice essays. 10 You write out answers to her questions. And there are four 11 questions. You don't have to do it. It's voluntary. And you 12 try to do it as soon as possible so you can get better 13 feedback from the professor because if you wait until the end, 14 everybody jams up, you're not going to get much feedback. 15 So I did that. I turned in my first one, and I got 16 mediocre, you know, you need to improve here, you need to do 17 this. So you keep rewriting it. The advantage to this is 18 that you can rewrite it until you get to that "A" answer. 19 She'll keep telling you what to do to get to the "A" answer. 20 So I needed to rewrite it, so I did that. But it was, you 21 know, getting close, so I decided well, I'm going to go in and 22 do question two and three also. So I submitted those, too. 23 And it was a week before the final exam that I got back 24 comments from her and the comments were, are you intimidated 25 by the question? It seems like you're having a problem, you BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 40 1 know -- because I went and talked to her about it. It seems 2 like you're just intimated by the question. 3 There was nothing -- there were no comments that 4 were constructive in terms of substantive stuff that I could 5 do to correct the essay. It was all comments about me and how 6 I approached, or how I perceive, or how I -- you know, decided 7 to set up my answers. And so -- when I got those, I was just 8 -- I was floored, I couldn't believe it, you know. I went 9 downstairs after getting -- our library, our downstairs is our 10 study area. And my friends were down there. And I was just so 11 upset. I was actually suppose to be outlining. I was suppose 12 to be working on something else, and I couldn't focus. I 13 couldn't focus for, you know, an hour, I'm just sitting here. 14 My friends are telling it's okay, you know, you need to go 15 talk to her. I'm saying, no, no, I'm not going in there, I'm 16 not going in there. And, you know, I felt this way throughout 17 the semester. I didn't want to go any of my professor office 18 hours especially after first semester when I -- you know, I 19 had taken -- the normal approach for me would be if you have a 20 problem you go and talk to somebody about it, you know. I'm 21 not the sort of person that would normally sit there silent. 22 I would go and talk, but I did not have the experiences when I 23 did that. So by second semester, I wasn't willing to do it. 24 And this went -- you know, I was forced to interact with her, 25 but I did not want to go and see her after that. I felt like BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 41 1 I don't need this right before an exam. I don't need to have 2 somebody telling me I can't do this right before the exam. So 3 I was like oh, I'm not going to go. And they talked to me for 4 about an hour. And then I got convinced that, you know, you 5 have to go because I can't go into that exam feeling like I 6 can't do this, like I'm intimidated by the questions. So I was 7 like I need to go back -- I need to go into her office just 8 because I need to gain my power back, you now. Not that I 9 thought she was going to change and tell me substantive things 10 that I could do to perform better on her exam. But I just 11 needed to go there and gain my own personal power back so that 12 when I sit down to take that exam, I'm not coming from the 13 prospective I'm so intimidated by the question is that all I 14 can do is write a bad answer. 15 So I went to her office hours. And one of my 16 friends who is also a student was in her office already, and 17 she asked if it was okay if I come in. So I came in. I talked 18 to her about the comments. And, again, she verbalized what 19 she had written, are you intimidated by the question? And I 20 told her, no, I'm not intimidated by the question, you know. 21 I love this subject. I think it's great. I really understand 22 it. I have a real personal interest in this. And, no, I 23 never felt like I was intimidated by the question. So we're 24 talking, this other student is talking, and a third student 25 comes in, comes into the room, And when she comes in, the BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 42 1 professor asks her can I show your essay, your answers to the 2 questions to these two students still here, and the girl says, 3 yes. So she pulls out her essay, answers to question two and 4 question three, and let's me look at them. She starts talking 5 to the student about something else. And I look at the paper, 6 I think it was question two, on my paper this was the one 7 where I got the comments about being intimidated and she 8 didn't like the way I had organized my answer. I put some 9 headings and she felt like they should be in different spots. 10 And she had drawn these arrows all over my paper, you know, up 11 here, circle this, and, you know, my whole paper just had all 12 these ink marks all over it. And I looked at this other 13 girl's paper, she done exactly the same thing I had done. She 14 organized her stuff with these headings in the same order. 15 She had no arrows drawn on her paper. No line, no circles. 16 She had a little comment that said, maybe you should put this 17 at the end. 18 Q And what is the race of this student? 19 A She was white. And I was sitting there in the office, 20 and I'm looking at my paper, I'm looking at her paper, and I'm 21 going, I can't believe this, I can't believe this. 22 And so I didn't say anything again. This other 23 student who was here with me had a question that she needed 24 answered. 25 Q What was her race? BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 43 1 A She's Asian. I think she's Chinese, I'm not sure. Well, 2 I'm actually pretty sure. I think she's Chinese, yeah. 3 And she had a question, a substantive question, a 4 substantive law question, and she was asking the professor 5 this question. And the professor had moved back around to her 6 desk. So the professor turns to this third student, this 7 white student and tells this student to explain this area of 8 the law to us that she was going to search the Internet. And 9 she turns around to her computer and she searches the 10 Internet. And I actually already knew the answer to this 11 question, but I was the one asking it, so I didn't say 12 anything. But I'm sitting here thinking about, wow, this girl 13 must feel great. She's come in here to find out how she's 14 doing and the first thing the professor says to her is, let me 15 show your work to these poor little students sitting here. 16 And we're all in the same situation. She's on academic 17 counselling with us, you know. So it's not like she was, you 18 know the TA, or she was a third-year law student, she's in 19 exactly the same position as us. And so now her work is being 20 shown as, you know, the example work of how to do things, and 21 she's been there breaking it down to us. So she leaves and 22 she's feeling wonderful, you know, because she knows she knows 23 her stuff, and she's going to take exam in a week and she's 24 going to do great, I'm sure. This is what I'm thinking at the 25 time. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 44 1 We leave that meeting. And I sit with the other 2 student in the hallway for a half hour while she's crying, and 3 she's totally defeated. And she doesn't want to take the 4 exam. She's scared to death that she's going to do badly on 5 that exam. And that's the difference of what is going on at 6 that school. 7 That's what the end of affirmative action means, is 8 that the few minorities that do get in, are feeling defeated 9 the whole time. And the other students are feeling empowered. 10 And we're competing against each other because we're on a 11 curve. When we go into that classroom, and we take an exam, 12 we're competing against people who are feeling empowered, 13 people who are not carrying the burden of haven't we had a 14 protest, of having to worry about their classmates being 15 arrested, you know. That's who we're competing with. So, yes, 16 is my GPA effected by it? Sure, because I'm not setting the 17 curve in that class, someone else is. I'm just having to 18 compete against them. 19 Q You said you had felt very good about the community 20 property class, you felt very confident in that subject. 21 A Yes. 22 Q What happened when you took the exam? 23 A The exam was half multiple choice which was a change she 24 made this year. It was a closed book exam. It was half 25 multiple choice, it was half essay. I knew the subject. I BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 45 1 knew it so well. I know I knew it. I talked to students, you 2 know, the days before the exam. And I got to that multiple 3 choice, I could narrow it down to two, but I was confused 4 between the two. I didn't trust my instincts. And I found 5 myself going back, circling things in the fact pattern, you 6 know, is it this, is it this, and just going over it, and over 7 it, and over it. And at the time I was doing it, I didn't know 8 my pace was off. 9 But -- there was a problem with the exam. There was 10 a calculation that was further on in the exam, and one of the 11 numbers was incorrect. I guess students had realized it and 12 gone to the proctor and told the proctor. The proctor had 13 contacted the professor to find out what the correct figure 14 was. When the proctor came back to our exam room, and made 15 the announcement that the figure should be this, the classroom 16 exploded. People were so upset. They're yelling, they're 17 screaming. And I look up, I'm not to that section of the exam 18 it. I totally freak out because I think I'm not going to be 19 able to finish the exam because our exams, you know, their 20 race horses. If it's a three-hour, three-and-a-half hour, 21 four-hour exam, that's a race horse exam. And so I panicked 22 because I wasn't even there yet, and these people were already 23 done. So I had outlined my answer, you know, after I finished 24 the fact pattern, I had outlined my answer, I knew what I was 25 suppose to write about for the essay. But because I panicked BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 46 1 I skipped over a whole section that was valuable points to 2 just do the calculation. And I missed that and I ended up 3 with a bad grade in that class, my second worse grade -- well, 4 equally worse grade in law school. 5 Q And when you were taking that exam did you have in your 6 mind the conversations with the professor? 7 A Sure, I had that going in. You know, I had it the day 8 before when I was studying for the exam. Of course, I had it, 9 you know, while I was in there. I mean, you don't ever get rid 10 of it. You don't -- I don't walk away from UCLA and then I'm 11 back to my confident self. You don't -- it's with you the 12 whole time. And it's not just that professor. It's been 13 repeatedly shown to me that their confidence in me is just 14 nill, you know, and not just in me, but in, you know, 15 minorities, period. 16 Q What has the loss of numbers meant to the Black Law 17 Students' Association? 18 A Well, it meant that we almost didn't have it. First of 19 all, we lost the National Black Law Journal. I'm not on a 20 journal. We don't have -- and I could be on another one, but 21 they don't interest me. But we don't have a National Black Law 22 Journal. 23 Last year most of the student organizations -- at 24 UCLA, second year run the student organizations. In April is 25 when they have their elections for who is going to take over BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 47 1 and be the officers. April came along, Lena and I are looking 2 at each other, well, we don't need an election because there's 3 only two of us. 4 I guess we just -- I knew, I knew from first 5 semester, I remember one day -- the first time I attended the 6 Black Law Students' Association meeting, I remember walking 7 home hyperventilating because I thought, oh, my God, oh, my 8 God, I have to run this thing by myself next year because Lena 9 feels -- keep in mind, she's a single parent with two 10 children, age six and eight. She has to go home to her 11 children, and I understand that. So I have to carry a lot of 12 the burden of being places and speaking for our class because 13 she couldn't be there because she was with her children. So 14 in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, oh, my God, I have to do 15 this by myself. I can't do this by myself. I don't even want 16 to do this. When I came to the school, I never wanted to be a 17 leader of the Black Law Students, I wanted to be a member and 18 suppport a leader. No, I just wanted to be a law student. 19 And so April comes. Lena and I realize we have to 20 do this. But the people who are running it now don't want us 21 to do it. They want BLSA to die because they don't feel like 22 Lena and I can do it. And when they lost the National Black 23 Law Journal, it was -- it was sort of like this slow 24 unrecognized gap. It was just kind of like, we just don't 25 have enough people to do it any more. We don't have enough BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 48 1 people to write. We don't have enough to edit. We don't have 2 enough people. And they just sort of closed up the doors one 3 day, and I mean literally because I had to go in and clean 4 that office up. 5 It was pens sitting on a piece of paper, like this, 6 like this. It was like somebody just up from the desk that day 7 and they locked the door and they never opened it again. So 8 they didn't like that to happen with BLSA. This is a very 9 active group of people, and they wanted attention to the fact 10 that there weren't enough black students to warrant the Black 11 Law Students' Association. So they fought against that. They 12 really -- they did not want us to take it over. 13 But Lena and I felt like we've already lost so much, 14 you know, there's nothing there for us in terms of support. 15 And they would say to us, what do you have -- what can both of 16 you view that you can't get? Well, being -- having the Black 17 Law Students' Association opens doors that -- just being 18 Chrystal James doesn't open. Number one, it opens a 19 connection to the other Black Law Students' Associations in 20 Southern California which we really need because they have job 21 fairs. They have academic support teams. They have social 22 events. They have community. And we needed to have that. It 23 gave us a mail box. It gave us a phone number so that when 24 different events were going, there would be some way for 25 people to contact us. And we thought that we needed that. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 49 1 Plus, we thought we deserved it, you know. Every second year 2 has the opportunity run their student organization. And we 3 felt like we deserved to have that. That's the least we 4 deserve to have. And so we fought. 5 We didn't really have a faculty advisor who was real 6 supportive. What we found was a faculty advisor who said if 7 you want to do this -- I'm not telling you, you should, but if 8 you guys want to try and do it, then, you know, I will be your 9 faculty advisor. 10 And we have an annual solidarity dinner. And 11 fortunately we went to that dinner and our alumni were very 12 supportive and saying, don't let BLSA die, don't let BLSA die. 13 So Lena and I did, but we came very close to not even having 14 an official student organization. 15 And another fear for us is that if we let it go now, 16 it's very hard to get it back. And people were telling us 17 that. And so we struggled. And when we took it over, you 18 know, we realized that we're going to be very limited in what 19 we could do so we made basically two goals for the year. One 20 was to support any first years that came in because we didn't 21 have it. And the second was to try to develop our alumni 22 contact because we really have to depend so much on our alumni 23 now because we just don't have the student population any more 24 to do hardly anything. So we're requiring a lot more from our 25 alumni. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 50 1 Q From talking to other students, to other black students, 2 you got a sense of how the numbers had dropped. 3 A Yes. 4 Q And from those discussions what was your understanding of 5 the number of black students in the entire UCLA Law School in 6 1996? 7 A There were eighty students there. Eighty. And, in fact, 8 that was published on the Website. What BLSA had is a Website 9 which is a one-page text that had no links or anything. But 10 there were eighty students there in 1996. I was, like, eighty? 11 Eighty students? I can't imagine what it must be like to be 12 walking around at that law school with seventy-nine other black 13 students here. I mean, we have, what, like ten right now or 14 less than ten because people go off on externships and stuff 15 like that. And it was just incredible. I just -- and they tell 16 me -- you know, the other thing was the Black Law Students' 17 Association had -- I think, like, three years in a row, one an 18 award for their community service.l And that was another reason 19 why they wanted us to give it up because they didn't want to 20 see it diminish. It had been such a great positive and 21 effective organization, they didn't want to see it dwindle into 22 this nothingness, you know. So it was like -- I just couldn't 23 believe it. And the things they were able to do, the community 24 that they had there, that these students -- because the third 25 years had entered -- there were still two years, two classes BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 51 1 there, that were pre-209. And so they had the experience of 2 having lots of blacks there, lots of blacks feeing positive, 3 feeling optimistic, feeling powerful, feeling confident. They 4 experienced all of that. And they would talk to us about it. 5 It was incredible. I just -- I'm sorry I'm not having that. 6 I'm jealous. 7 Q Did BLSA normally have a graduation dinner? 8 A Yes, that's one of the responsibilities of the second 9 years who are in the organization is to give their third years 10 a graduation dinner -- or party -- a graduation celebration, 11 whatever they decide it should be. 12 Q And the year you graduate, is that a graduation dinner of 13 two? 14 A I believe it's going to be. There's a possibility it may 15 be three only because there is a student who's in our -- who is 16 a third -- she would be a third year now, but she had to take a 17 semester off because she had a baby. And I think she's going 18 to walk with us. She's not really our class. She didn't enter 19 with our class, but I think she's going to walk with us. But 20 who knows even whether she'll walk, but yeah -- I mean, 21 technically, yes, it will be a graduation of two. 22 Q And have you done anything to compensate for that? 23 A We haven't done anything for us because it will be -- it 24 will be the students that come behind us, that over. But for 25 our graduates, there are three who are graduating, who Lena and BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 52 1 I have the responsibility of giving them some sort of 2 graduation celebration. And we're just -- you know, we're 3 talking about it now this semester because it's coming up. And 4 it just seems so ridiculous to plan this big party for three 5 people. And so what we're doing is -- and actually one of the 6 third years suggested that we try to combine with LLSLO, the 7 Latino-Latino Student Law Organization and AIPLSA, which is the 8 Asian Island Pacific Law Students' Association so -- because 9 their numbers are down, too. And then AILSO, American Indian 10 Law Students' Organization, they have, like, one graduate. So 11 we're trying to combine together all of the third years so it 12 can at least seem like a party; otherwise, we could all get 13 together, five us, and go, yea, you made it. But we want it to 14 be a big celebration. It's a big accomplishment. And we want 15 it to be a big thing. So that's the way we're going to have to 16 do it is all of us get together so we can have, you know, have 17 more than three or four people there and have a big party. I 18 don't know what the details of it are going to be yet. We're 19 just starting to plan it. 20 Q How many black students were admitted your year? 21 A I believe eighteen. 22 Q And it was two -- three? 23 A Well, there's some question as to whether the third one 24 actually checked the box or not. So at least by the end of 25 first semester the official number was two. So, yeah, two to BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 53 1 three of us, or two and a half enrolled. 2 Q The fall in the numbers is really profound. 3 A Yes, it is. 4 Q I want to know if it's just a question of the numbers. 5 Had you had many experiences of being one black person in a sea 6 of white people before? 7 A Oh, sure. In my undergraduate, I've been in classes 8 where I was the only black. I've been in history classes where 9 we had to discuss slavery, the end of slavery, reconstruction, 10 civil rights. I've been -- most of my work situations, I've 11 been the only black. I had a career in banking. I was the 12 only black in the office. Even right before I went to law 13 school, and I worked in a legal department, and I was the only 14 back. No black attorneys in my area of the department, anyway. 15 And I was a legal assistant. I was the only black legal 16 assistant. There were no black attorneys. So I've been in many 17 situations. I grew up in a town where there was only one other 18 black family. 19 Q What is different about this? 20 A What's different is the way you're treated because of 21 being the only black. And in the past, in my experiences, I 22 always -- I always felt okay about it because I had people 23 encouraging me, people making me feel good for my 24 accomplishments, for my ability, for my skills, for my work 25 ethic. And here it's just the opposite. People have this BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 54 1 assumption already and they perceive to treat you based on that 2 assumption. It doesn't matter what you're doing. You know, 3 when I'm sitting in that classroom, especially the first few 4 weeks, those professors don't know, you know, what my abilities 5 are. They don't know my resume. They don't know what I've 6 done before I came to their classroom. They can probably look 7 at me and see that I'm an older student than the norm that's 8 sitting in that classroom. But they don't know what my 9 experience has been. But their assumption is still that I can't 10 answer their questions other than to relay the facts of the 11 case that I read last night. 12 Q And they assume that about you because you're black. 13 Q I believe so, yes, since I don't see it happening non 14 black students. 15 Q Were you political at all before you got to UCLA Law 16 School? 17 A No, no, I wasn't. I always felt like I was contributing 18 to African-Americans doing better by me doing better. By -- 19 you know, like I said I was in many, many situations where I 20 was the only black. And I felt like by performing well and 21 being a good person, that spoke to them, you know, all blacks 22 are not alike. We don't all think alike. We don't all look 23 alike. We don't all act alike. And -- you know, I would talk 24 to people about the fact that they hadn't been around a lot of 25 blacks before and they had different ideas and around me, BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 55 1 changed some of their ideas. Or they would ask questions, or 2 whatever. So I always felt like I was adding just by being who 3 I was. And so I never really get engaged in any kind of 4 political activity. 5 Stanford, although there was -- there was some 6 activity about, you know, when 209 was going to hit the 7 ballot, there wasn't a lot of organized stuff on campus. And 8 I was away for one quarter, too. So I didn't get involved 9 there. And I never wanted to. 10 Again, going back -- I did not want to go to Boalt 11 because I did not want to be put in that position, you know. 12 Maybe if I was twenty-two years old and I was planning on 13 being a civil rights attorney, that would have been the 14 perfect environment for me, you know. But you know, I'm kind 15 of pass those years. And I just wanted to, you know, learn how 16 to be a lawyer. I wanted to be a corporate lawyer. So I did 17 not feel like being a political activist was going to be the 18 best route for me to incorporate all this. So, no, I was not 19 political. I was not planning on being political. 20 Q Did you find nonetheless that you had to take a stand at 21 UCLA? 22 A Definitely, definitely. You know, the fact that only two 23 enrolled made it a political situation. And when I got there, 24 the pressure's on you. I mean, there's two of you there. And 25 there are people that are upset about it other than you, and BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 56 1 they want to do something about it. They want you to do 2 something about it. I became -- Lena and I became the poster 3 children, literally. The poster children of the effect of the 4 end of affirmative action. I would go down the hallways when 5 there were rallies and protests and see poster that said, only 6 two African-Americans. There were songs made up, only two, 7 shame on you. People were chanting about me. People were 8 making posters about me. The statistics were all around. And 9 I remember going -- you know, the first big protest that was 10 planned, the organization that was planning it was having a 11 meeting. They needed people to help make signs. Now, I'm a 12 supporter. Like I said, I didn't go there planning to lead 13 anything. I'll support, you know, but I really just wanted to 14 focus on being a law student. So I said, well, I'll come in 15 and I'll help signs. So I was there painting signs. Even 16 though some of the signs were about me, you know, only two. 17 And then they started talking about we need speakers, we need 18 student speakers. And they said, we really need you to speak, 19 we really need you to talk about, you know, what's it like for 20 you to be here. And I didn't want to do it. I hate public 21 speaking. That's why I was really nervous, and you guys know 22 that I -- some of you know I did not want to come and do this 23 because I hate public speaking. So I didn't want to do it. 24 But they really were telling me, we really -- we need you to do 25 this. BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 57 1 And then I felt like after having the signs and 2 hearing the songs, and that I needed to let people know that 3 there are human beings behind these statistics. These only 4 two? I'm one of those only two. I'm the one who comes here 5 and it's only one of two, and I needed people to see that. 6 And so when I did my -- when I spoke, when I wrote the speech, 7 I wasn't writing it, you know, oh, the policy this. I was 8 writing about what it's like to be one of two and walk the 9 hallways. 10 I'm not from LA. I had never even been to the UCLA 11 campus before the first day that I came to the summer program. 12 So I didn't have a car. So I had a gotten an apartment. I was 13 very close to campus. I knew I could get to school every day. 14 So I walked. And one of the things I ran into shortly 15 thereafter was the fact that I needed to get my hair done 16 because I put a relaxer in my hair, and I wanted to try to 17 keep my hair, so I decided I better not do it myself. There 18 was nobody out there for me to ask where can I go get my hair 19 done? You know, that's what I wrote about. In my speech I 20 wrote, you know, to some people, that might seem really 21 insignificant, like, oh, you can't get your hair done. But 22 when you're a first-year law student, and you're going through 23 all the pressures of first year, and your confidence is being 24 beaten anyway aside -- put race aside for a moment -- you're 25 sitting in that classroom, your first -- you know, BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 58 1 introduction to Socratic method, you're trying to figure out a 2 case, cases from the 1800s. You know, your confidence takes a 3 beating. And one of the things that you can do is at least 4 try to keep your body healthy, and keep your spirit healthy. 5 And as a black woman, your hair is really important to you. 6 So I tried to convey to them how difficult it was to even 7 think that other people walked around taking for granted at 8 that school. They can walk to downtown Westwood and get their 9 hair done at any shop down there. I can't go into any of 10 those shops and get my hair done. Not because they wouldn't 11 allow a black person in, because they don't know how to take 12 care of my hair. They don't have the products, and they don't 13 have the training to take care of my hair. 14 And I was walking around that school with basically 15 a living helmet. My hair was (indicating) and there were ends 16 sticking out. And, you know, every morning, I'm looking in 17 the mirror, and that's my first thing, oh, my God, my hair is 18 crazy. There was no one there for me to ask. 19 Lena is -- she is half African-American, and she's 20 half Latina. She has totally different hair than I have. My 21 group of friends although they're very supportive and we have 22 study groups together, they're Latina, they're Asian, they 23 don't go to a black hair salon. I just couldn't even get my 24 hair done. 25 And that's what I talked about. I talked about BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 59 1 walking the hallways and being invisible to my classmates, 2 that they won't even say hello to me. I talked about not even 3 being able to find someone to tell me where can I get my hair 4 done, and then actually beg a ride off of them, too. So 5 that's what I spoke about. And I was really surprised by the 6 response. It really effected people. And I thought there 7 were so many other speakers there that were just great 8 speakers, and I was so nervous. I was shaking, and I remember 9 when I was done, somebody tried to hand me a glass of water, 10 and I couldn't hold the water to drink it. And I had to just 11 sit on the side for a few minutes and calm down enough to even 12 be able to drink the glass of water. 13 But after that, I had so many people send me 14 e-mails, come up to me in the hallways, you know, thank me for 15 speaking. White students, black students, Asian students, 16 everybody, faculty tell me how moving my speech was and how 17 much they appreciated it, and how much they appreciated being 18 made aware of it, you know. And up until last semester -- you 19 know, for a year, I still was getting e-mails and I remember I 20 was at a function in the library just last semester and a 21 librarian came up to me, and he said, you're the one that 22 spoke last year, aren't you? And I said, yeah. And he goes, 23 that was such a wonderful speech, I just want you to know. 24 So I don't know how or why or what, but forever 25 reason people were moved by it, and all I was talking about BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 60 1 was my experience there as a student. 2 Q Ms. James, are you more or less conscious of race and 3 racism now than you were before? 4 A Oh, I'm definitely more conscious of it, definitely. And 5 I don't feel like I was unaware of it before. But, you know, I 6 never get away from it. I never get away from it. 7 During the first year, when I was having lots of 8 problems, and my family couldn't understand because I never 9 had problems academically before. People would say, just 10 don't deal with it, don't get involved with it, don't get 11 involved. Some people. My mom wasn't one of them. But some 12 people would say, you know, just don't get involved. And they 13 didn't understand that you cannot not be involved. When you're 14 sitting in the classroom and you're experiencing that hostile 15 environment, how do you not be involved? How do you not be 16 involved by comments that are being made? How do you not be 17 involved with the fact that the professor is only asking you 18 about facts. How do you not be involved with the fact that 19 he's going down a row and you're next, and you're getting, you 20 know, a little tense, because you're saying, oh, gosh, I'm 21 going to be on call, and then he jumps to the row behind you. 22 How do you not be involved with that? How do you not be 23 involved when your classmates are taken over to the admissions 24 office and the police, the Los Angeles police are coming to 25 your campus to drag them off in handcuffs. How do you walk BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 61 1 away from that when they're doing it while they're chanting 2 songs about you, how do you walk away from that and say it 3 doesn't involve me, I don't have to deal with it. You never 4 get away from it. 5 So, yeah, I'm much more conscious because before I 6 came here, I was able to go to school, I was able to go to 7 work, and I was able to be Chrystal James. Yes, I was always 8 black woman, Chrystal James, but I was judged on my 9 performance whether it be academic or whether it be my work 10 performance I thought. I always felt that I was being judged 11 on that first, you know. I don't ever feel like anybody 12 didn't see me as being black, or didn't see me as being a 13 woman, but they saw me for what I was doing. And I come here, 14 and I am always -- first of all, I was one of two before 15 people knew what my name was, I was one of two. And it wasn't 16 until I decided to let you know what my name is that they even 17 knew that. But I'm always still one of the few black students 18 at UCLA, and I never get away from that. 19 Q Do you feel that there are others in the school who have 20 tried to make you feel like a poster child for the end of 21 affirmative action? 22 A Yeah, yeah. I don't know if that was their intention. I 23 think that's the fact, you know, what are going to make posters 24 about. And, you know, these people were people who were on my 25 side. These are people who want to change that. They don't BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 62 1 want it to be that there are only two African-Americans in any 2 entering class at the law school. So their intentions I think 3 were good. But, again, it's so prevalent on that campus that 4 people don't really realize the impact of being one of two. 5 And so they're making the posters, they're making the songs, I 6 mean, this is what you do for a protest. It became that, you 7 know. It just is that. And I just was the poster child. It 8 was most -- we were just the most obvious, the impact on the 9 numbers. I mean, two, two. 10 The Native American -- I don't know -- and then that 11 person was on the posters, too. But I don't why it didn't -- 12 again, I think it's just that, you know, in our history, it's 13 always been most extreme between black and white. So it tends 14 to -- lots of things tend to focus on black. So, yeah, I was 15 the poster child. 16 And it's for the administration, too. You know, 17 that they made posters or anything, but when the Dean would 18 speak, you know, the statistics always come up, and he's 19 defending the policy, he's defending the statistics. So, you 20 know, yeah, we were, we were definitely the poster children 21 for that. 22 Q And were there others who were not on your side? 23 A There are others that are not -- they don't organize and 24 they don't protest, but then they don't really have to because 25 they control the classrooms. So their strength and their power BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 63 1 come across every day when I'm sitting in that classroom. They 2 don't need to organize and to protest. They're not the 3 minority there. 4 Q When you entered UCLA Law, did you want to pursue an MBA? 5 A I did, yeah. 6 Q If you were to decide to pursue it, would you attend a UC 7 law school -- a UC MBA Law? 8 A No. 9 Q Where would you go? 10 A Not in the UC system. No, I would not. 11 Q Thank you for bailing me out. 12 Is that because of the impact against affirmative 13 action on your education? 14 A Yes, yes, and I will not risk putting myself in this 15 situation again. 16 Q Ms. James, are you able to be an individual in this now 17 purported color blind law school? 18 A Well, I am an individual, but -- am I perceived as an 19 individual? Maybe only by my friends, but, no, I don't think 20 that, no, I don't get to just be an individual law student. I'm 21 always walking with a badge of one of two African-American 22 students in UCLA Law School. I don't -- yeah, I don't feel 23 like I get to just be an individual. I have a lot of burdens 24 that my classmates don't have. 25 Q Are you treated like you're qualified to be there? BENCH TRIAL - VOLUME 9 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7TH, 2001 64 1 A No, no. 2 Q Do you enter the law school and feel like you have the 3 privilege of being judged as an individual today? 4 A I can't say like one hundred percent. Is it more than 5 last year? Yeah, because there were five African-Americans 6 that came in the first year. So the spotlight is off of me. 7 But, no, I still -- I mean, it's a difficult question to answer 8 because so much of what I have to do doe